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Ageism Haunts Some Tech Workers in the Race to Get Hired

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Re: Ageism Haunts Some Tech Workers in the Race to Get Hired

#181
post #149
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Point was - it will speed up junior to senior transition. Not that it will replace seniors with juniors. We will also need less senior ppl, coz AI will be "good enough", most stuff we are faced with isn't really that complex.

If AI is “good enough” but you need to be senior to use it don’t we need less juniors ? Like, just enough to replenish the retiring seniors.

That’s my point, yes.

At least in the current state of affairs.

Also it’s a technical view from someone who played/worked with AI for more than a year.

It may not be the opinion of upper management :) And upper management can survive a pretty long time after their own mess.

Re: Ageism Haunts Some Tech Workers in the Race to Get Hired

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently. Why else were companies scooping up bootcamp grads for 200k+ to make yet another CRUD app? They clearly feel that investment will be worth it. Compensation of course isn't the best factor for determining cutting edge. Defense contractors for instance, can work on some truly novel tech but salaries in government has hard caps. But it is telling of something when the above scenario was true not too long ago…

Yeah, I dropped my /s. Too many years of watching people do embedded, RF, flight control systems and whatnot for 20 years for half what FAANG was throwing at recent grads. Not that there isn't some truly inspiring engineering happening there, though IIRC correctly the people who first built that stuff weren't exactly spring chickens.

I don't understand the obsession with being young - when the SR-71 Blackbird had its first flight, Kelly Johnson was 54 years old. I'm not old, but not that young anymore, and from what I've seen, there's a spectrum of ability in all age groups.

And pay does not exactly line up with 'Value' produced (which itself is a nebulous concept)

Re: Ageism Haunts Some Tech Workers in the Race to Get Hired

#183

I feel this. I got the "you look older than your profile pic" comment during an interview last year. That one was fun. Dude wanted to know if I could even code anymore.

we are looking for recent graduates

Literally all companies in my industry have an application track just "for graduates". They just want young kids, I never understood how this is legal. What am I missing?

Re: Ageism Haunts Some Tech Workers in the Race to Get Hired

#184

In my past experience, Apple was full of graybeards who could code circles around younger devs. They’re the ones who knew how to build and maintain high quality software. I’m not sure if it’s the same way now, but I was highly impressed with my former coworkers’ caliber. Ageism isn’t an inevitability, it’s a choice.

> Ageism isn’t an inevitability, it’s a choice.

No you see, that's precisely the problem. Going bad because of your age is a choice. Being descriminated against because of your age, which is what ageism is, is not a choice.

Re: Ageism Haunts Some Tech Workers in the Race to Get Hired

#185

Sure ageism is a thing, but I can't help but think that long experience in industry can be sort of a "get another job" superpower. After a couple of decades in industry, I've formed so many professional relationships that it's hard for me to imagine that I might have any real trouble finding another job if I lost my current one. I mean, I guess I could be delusional and find it to be really tough at some point, but i…

> how can you not have contacts sprinkled around in your industry who can give you a leg up on the job-finding process?

I can answer that because I see that situation coming. I just can't be bothered talking to people if I can avoid it. At this moment I have one manager who manages I think 3 people. He gives me problems to solve. I don't talk to anyone else in a company that hires 300+ people. When I leave I won't have any contacts sprinkled around, just my manager. That's how.

Re: Ageism Haunts Some Tech Workers in the Race to Get Hired

#186
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In most cases its "by having previous connections" or "pure luck". If it would be easy - everyone would be doing consunlting coz it pays way better and work-life balance is also better.

Is work life balance really better when you have to worry bout finding your next gig and also that everything’s on you (don’t have a team/others to fall back on)?

When 3 months of one gig pay for your whole year of expenses - yes its better.

Re: Ageism Haunts Some Tech Workers in the Race to Get Hired

#187
post #177
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I say this as a greybeard myself, but as someone who been on the interviewer/hiring manager side of quite a few interviews with older candidates, it's a lot more common than they realize that they're just *bad*. Yes, there are many good ones, and yes the wisdom they have is a huge benefit. But plenty of them think this applies to them when it does not. The most common issue is they've long since let themselves go tec…

> They haven't been staying abreast of current changes, and by that I don't mean jumping on the latest fad but rather knowing that the fads exist. Thing is if you’ve been around the block and have a decent understanding of fundamentals…it just doesn’t matter what the fad of the week is. It’s just noise. Old principles repackaged with different conventions. Not sure why that has to be a red flag. It doesn’t mean peopl…

I'm kind of happy I'm not in webdev but embedded. There's not so much fads in this area.

In any case, I agree, fundamentals matter much more than superficial knowledge of fads.

Also I'm glad the OOP fad of the 90s and 00s seems to be finally dead. It felt almost religious. And it was frustrating to argue against the obvious issues.

Re: Ageism Haunts Some Tech Workers in the Race to Get Hired

#188
post #177
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I say this as a greybeard myself, but as someone who been on the interviewer/hiring manager side of quite a few interviews with older candidates, it's a lot more common than they realize that they're just *bad*. Yes, there are many good ones, and yes the wisdom they have is a huge benefit. But plenty of them think this applies to them when it does not. The most common issue is they've long since let themselves go tec…

> They haven't been staying abreast of current changes, and by that I don't mean jumping on the latest fad but rather knowing that the fads exist. Thing is if you’ve been around the block and have a decent understanding of fundamentals…it just doesn’t matter what the fad of the week is. It’s just noise. Old principles repackaged with different conventions. Not sure why that has to be a red flag. It doesn’t mean peopl…

> Thing is if you’ve been around the block and have a decent understanding of fundamentals…it just doesn’t matter what the fad of the week is. It’s just noise. Old principles repackaged with different conventions.

This is just not true. Entire fields exist today that didn't exist or barely existed even a few years ago.

As an example, the field I've been working in for ~7 years is Data Engineering, and it was "relatively" new when I first started, or at least the modern way of doing it was. Since then, some specific technologies have become fairly commonplace, like Airflow and dbt.

Does this mean everyone should have experience with this tech? No, of course not. But does this mean that someone should know that the field exists and what's different about it compared to other kinds of stacks? For some people, absolutely it's important. A "senior" backend engineer who wants to solve an "ETL-pipeline to Data Warehouse" shaped project will hopefully know that there are standard modern tools in that area, and not just to try and do it with {insert their standard backend framework}.

Similarly, someone who hasn't "kept up with the times" in the world of frontends might not know much about SPAs. Are SPAs always the solution? No, there are now trends going back towards traditional server-only approaches. But there's a difference in knowing that they exist and what their place is and choosing a different approach thoughtfully, vs not knowing they are even a thing.

Re: Ageism Haunts Some Tech Workers in the Race to Get Hired

#189
post #187
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They haven't been staying abreast of current changes, and by that I don't mean jumping on the latest fad but rather knowing that the fads exist. Thing is if you’ve been around the block and have a decent understanding of fundamentals…it just doesn’t matter what the fad of the week is. It’s just noise. Old principles repackaged with different conventions. Not sure why that has to be a red flag. It doesn’t mean peopl…

I'm kind of happy I'm not in webdev but embedded. There's not so much fads in this area. In any case, I agree, fundamentals matter much more than superficial knowledge of fads. Also I'm glad the OOP fad of the 90s and 00s seems to be finally dead. It felt almost religious. And it was frustrating to argue against the obvious issues.

> I'm kind of happy I'm not in webdev but embedded. There's not so much fads in this area.

How true is that about embedded though? I started out in that field for the first six years of my professional life, but it's been almost 15 years since then. I still know a lot more about it than the random dev who hasn't worked in it at all, but I kind of doubt I could be very intelligent about it without a bunch of catching up.

(Though obviously I agree that there are almost certainly faster changes in web dev.)

Re: Ageism Haunts Some Tech Workers in the Race to Get Hired

#190
post #189
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm kind of happy I'm not in webdev but embedded. There's not so much fads in this area. In any case, I agree, fundamentals matter much more than superficial knowledge of fads. Also I'm glad the OOP fad of the 90s and 00s seems to be finally dead. It felt almost religious. And it was frustrating to argue against the obvious issues.

> I'm kind of happy I'm not in webdev but embedded. There's not so much fads in this area. How true is that about embedded though? I started out in that field for the first six years of my professional life, but it's been almost 15 years since then. I still know a lot more about it than the random dev who hasn't worked in it at all, but I kind of doubt I could be very intelligent about it without a bunch of catching…

>but I kind of doubt I could be very intelligent about it without a bunch of catching up.

I doubt you'd need to catch up because of expired knowledge. Rather things you forgot or areas that you didn't deal with yet.

I think embedded can have a lot of depth if you get into certain details.

There's basically no framework churn like in webdev, though. C and C++ are still very much current.

Rust is becoming more of a contender, but still not common.

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