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Ageism Haunts Some Tech Workers in the Race to Get Hired

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Re: Ageism Haunts Some Tech Workers in the Race to Get Hired

#111

Post by johnnyanmac »

sterlind wrote: post #82
panzagl wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on how you define 'the field'- if you mean SV cutting edge unicorn selling ad stuff, then yes. If you include some place like Lockheed Martin or Northrup Grumman doing boring non-cutting edge stuff like aerospace or signal analysis, then no.

so web apps are sexy and cutting edge, while sensor fusion is boring and stale? I'm not a defense contractor, but that take just seems wild. most of SV isn't cutting-edge tech. most SV devs are generalists.

Apparently. Why else were companies scooping up bootcamp grads for 200k+ to make yet another CRUD app? They clearly feel that investment will be worth it.

Compensation of course isn't the best factor for determining cutting edge. Defense contractors for instance, can work on some truly novel tech but salaries in government has hard caps. But it is telling of something when the above scenario was true not too long ago.

Re: Ageism Haunts Some Tech Workers in the Race to Get Hired

#112

Post by teunispeters »

One of the more subtle ways this is exhibited is by only preferring certain recent tech stacks, or orienting interview questions around computer science concepts that are only quite modern - especially if either of these have nothing to do with the toolset actually used. (or, asking for a recent transcript!). I've seen ALL of this in the time I've been looking for work, repeatedly.

It's very annoying, but most can be overcome if one's got time and patience.

Re: Ageism Haunts Some Tech Workers in the Race to Get Hired

#113

Post by johnnyanmac »

antod wrote: post #60
georgeecollins wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about: We're not sure the team will be comfortable working with someone so experienced. Pretty obvious what that was about.

Sheesh - what a lame statement. All the juniors I've worked with are very keen to learn from us old timers, and likewise their enthusiasm and energy rubs off on us. It's a win-win as far as I'm concerned.

lame, but legally sound. The typical back handed rejection is "overexperienced". It at least tried to make the candidate feel better.

Re: Ageism Haunts Some Tech Workers in the Race to Get Hired

#114

Post by pojzon »

pjerem wrote: post #84
pojzon wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AI changes the landscape alot. Even as an experienced engineer the sheer amount of knowledge you get access to from a single prompt without having to read any tutorial or book can change a Junior into Senior very quickly. I just hope it wont face the same issue google had: - starting with good answers and evolving into mud

For now, my feelings are that AI can be really helpful if you know the field. You need to be senior to know how to ask things and to understand the answers. For anyone not understanding the domain, AI is just a glorified stack overflow but with hallucinations. Hallucinations can be fought but you need to suggest that you got the wrong answer and why. And that requires a deep understanding of the domain. Honestly I’m…

Point was - it will speed up junior to senior transition. Not that it will replace seniors with juniors.

We will also need less senior ppl, coz AI will be "good enough", most stuff we are faced with isn't really that complex.

Re: Ageism Haunts Some Tech Workers in the Race to Get Hired

#115

Post by pojzon »

mulmen wrote: post #104
gostintheshell wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd suggest starting with being around the interfaces between orgs.. Anywhere you can put your head down and work for days without talking to other companies is a luxury to indulge in sparingly if you are insuring for future employment as not the cheapest labor in not the cheapest land.

I don’t understand. How do I transition from a FTE at a corporation to a contractor? How do I get the first contract?

In most cases its "by having previous connections" or "pure luck".

If it would be easy - everyone would be doing consunlting coz it pays way better and work-life balance is also better.

Re: Ageism Haunts Some Tech Workers in the Race to Get Hired

#116

Post by johnnyanmac »

slibhb wrote: post #25
Kluggy wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our industry isn't powered by the rare genius, but by the magnitude of line coders that the best impact they can do is just not cause issues as they develop the next version that adds feature x and y promised by some sales engineer to a big client. Sure, by 40 you're not likely to change the world. But in your 20's, you're not likely to change the world either. It's a long shot. Focusing on the fact that the long sho…

Geniuses follow the same curve as virtually everyone else. Humans are most active, energetic and quick in our late teens to early 30s and fall off steadily after that. People in this thread need to ask themselves why they're engaging in age-denialism.

>People in this thread need to ask themselves why they're engaging in age-denialism.

Simple: compensation and hiring practices run counter to this notion. If you're most productive in your 20's you should be paid more for that productivity, and years of experience wouldn't be such a mandatory metric.

Neither is true in practice. Older people have more expeirence, and get paid more. Policy makers have a median age in the late 50's. Young people are hired for peanuts and hope to get more money as they get more experience, regardless of if they are treading water or are in fact the most productive member of a company.

Your notions are only really true for top level sports, where gynmasts and professional athletes are in fact hired, compensated, and performed at their peak in the early 20's and tend to burn out (relative to other early 20's athletes) as they approach 30.

Re: Ageism Haunts Some Tech Workers in the Race to Get Hired

#117

Post by mech422 »

johnnyanmac wrote: post #107
mech422 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah - I have 40+ yoe, and I could see a lot of places don't need a 'senior'.. they just need a couple more junior coders. Also, you tend to get a bit jaded - I basically ignore companies that are going 'to change the world!!!' :-P I broke my own rule and went to a startup that actually seems to have a useful product, rather then just big dreams...

Frustrating for everyone on board. Juniors don't get the training and experience they need to progress, Seniors don't get the compensation they deserve, and wizards are just having their time wasted when they get called and hear a salary that they probably made 20 years prior. I guess it works, or the cost to do all that is low, otherwise so many places wouldn't do it.

I guess... I can see everyone thinks they're company is special and needs 'rock stars' and '10x's but generally 1 senior for every 5-10 juniors is fine for most places.

The salary thing is annoying - for a while it seemed like most jobs were listing salaries because of CA/CO/MA requiring it. But it seems to be going back to the old "D.O.E" thing again :-/

Re: Ageism Haunts Some Tech Workers in the Race to Get Hired

#118

Post by hatthew »

jghn wrote: post #90
imbusy111 wrote: post #29

I did feel a disadvantage myself when I was job searching a few months ago, but for me it was my personal attitude coming through more than anyone judging me by my age. I felt that I just cannot get excited anymore about some of the bullshit the company leadership is throwing around, and neither could I overlook the massive mistakes the companies are making based on my own interview questions. But I do understand tha…

I say this as a greybeard myself, but as someone who been on the interviewer/hiring manager side of quite a few interviews with older candidates, it's a lot more common than they realize that they're just *bad*. Yes, there are many good ones, and yes the wisdom they have is a huge benefit. But plenty of them think this applies to them when it does not. The most common issue is they've long since let themselves go tec…

Anecdote about older folks not staying abreast of the latest: A few years ago, I was being interviewed by a programmer far my senior (in both experience and age). I have my github link on my resume, and the interviewer noticed and asked "What's GitHub?"

Re: Ageism Haunts Some Tech Workers in the Race to Get Hired

#119

Post by geodel »

antod wrote: post #60
georgeecollins wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about: We're not sure the team will be comfortable working with someone so experienced. Pretty obvious what that was about.

Sheesh - what a lame statement. All the juniors I've worked with are very keen to learn from us old timers, and likewise their enthusiasm and energy rubs off on us. It's a win-win as far as I'm concerned.

Indeed, we can intensify or we can reduce fault lines. Labeling old or young folks with worst stereotypes will not solve problems apart from giving jollies to some on social media.

So far for me working with young people has been lot of fun and learning on both sides.

Re: Ageism Haunts Some Tech Workers in the Race to Get Hired

#120

Post by paxys »

karaterobot wrote: post #101
paxys wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying that no company has ever fired an experienced engineer?

They even said "most", probably to avoid the exact question you asked.

Okay, and the linked article isn't saying that every old person faces age discrimination in the industry. It's safe to say that most don't. That doesn't mean it isn't a problem, or that the problem should be ignored.
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