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Experienced engineers are struggling to get hired

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Re: Experienced engineers are struggling to get hired

#121

Actually I think that one of the specific problem of IT is that experience is not really "usefull" because - from outside of IT (management, HR) - there's always new tools/technology/buzzwords that SEEM to replace old technologies... So why pay more to hire an experienced IT man that will not know the latest techno-fad when all you need is a junior that knows them a little bit and is waaaayy cheaper. Moreover - from…

With experience comes pattern recognition. You can see traps 10 steps ahead of your junior peers. Yes, they can experience personally those steps faster but you can spot 5 of them reading emails with your morning coffee. My problem now is stopping myself from thinking 20 steps ahead and thinking of all work being pointless. It's a mental trick you play on yourself if "maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'll learn something, chop…

> With experience comes pattern recognition.

How do you put a dollar value on that though? If I can hire either 2 junior programmers for $100k, or 1 senior programmer for $200k.....how the heck am I supposed to know that this guy can pattern-recognize an extra $100k of value??

Re: Experienced engineers are struggling to get hired

#122
post #66

I am actively looking to hire - either freelance or full-time - an engineer to write open source golang code for my YC startup. However, I literally cannot afford FAANG salaries at my stage. It would literally bring my runway from n to n/5 years. And many candidates are asking for 400k+ salaries. I’d love to hire someone who knows what they’re doing but I’m just not able to find people who are both qualified and inte…

> cannot afford FAANG salaries Avoid recruitment channels (like HN!) where FAANG people and FAANG-apirants congregate. > with lots of FAANG experience Use FAANG experience as an exclusion filter, not an inclusion filter. First, as you said, you can't afford the compensation that they're used to. Second, FAANG companies can absorb tons of bad talent in their hiring process and have mechanisms to both push that talent…

I disagree.

Managers on average are worse than the average coder. And FAANG managers are no exception. At some level it becomes more about winning intra-company fights, than moving the company forward.

You gotta look at the applicant as a whole person: personality, skills, ability to push the needle forward, etc.

Re: Experienced engineers are struggling to get hired

#123
Multiple causes have led to this.

- A glut of people entering the field with no experience.

- A more recent glut of people laid off who now expect or need inflated salaries to maintain their lifestyle and status.

- Excessive focus by employers on very specific "skills" that don't necessarily translate to productivity or contributing to a team and project.

- Employers not willing to train or mentor new hires, and expecting to hire only the "best" or the top X% of candidates.

- Investors and shareholders demanding revenue or at least market share growth rather than quality, consistency, cultivating employees, or even producing anything of real value.

- Meaningless titles, people with very little actual experience or talent called (or calling themselves) "senior."

- Employers conflating university degrees with talent and ability, and then requiring experience the candidates can't acquire in school.

- Programming education degraded to "boot camps" and other superficial and shallow "skills" training. Comp Sci has little to do with the vast majority of programming work.

- Mistaking unnecessary complexity for technical excellence, at both the management and programmer level.

- New programmers ignorant or dismissive of actual opportunities because they focus on the latest fads and fashion they read about, and only look at the FAANG companies and hip startups.

- Managers who can't manage software development projects or programmers, don't know how to evaluate candidates, don't use metrics, and jump from one nonsense pop psychology or social media inspired craze to another.

- No useful way to measure ability to perform in the job, and relying on poor proxies such as resume keywords and leetcode and whiteboard performance.

- A paralyzing fear of making a mistake, or choosing the wrong job or candidate, that afflicts programmers, hiring managers, HR departments.

- Fake it until you make it ethos, and the flip side we call imposter syndrome.

- The idea that a job must provide self-fulfillment, "follow your passion," etc. And the parallel inflated requirements employers dream up pretending they will have problems of scale or will work on novel and difficult technical problems.

- Actual talent and aptitude for programming in the sense of solving real business problems remains rare.

I have worked over 40 years as a professional programmer so I've seen all of these things happen over time. Employers and candidates both have unrealistic expectations and terrible processes for matching with each other. And I can't think of a nice way to put this, but the programming field (or "software engineering" as some like to fancy themselves) looks like a long-term clinical study of the Dunning-Kruger effect. Programmers delude themselves about their abilities and value in the job market, and employers delude themselves about their needs and requirements.

Re: Experienced engineers are struggling to get hired

#125
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

12 years, still looking though this month looks promising, its been a shit show after shit show since covid tbh

Covid was the easiest time ever to find a software job

Not for all I guess.

Re: Experienced engineers are struggling to get hired

#127

My observation is that companies are getting much more precise on their needs. The days of “you’re smart and have a technical background” have given way to “there’s a dozen people in the market who have the exact experience we need, so we will limit our pool to them.” This is especially painful for college grads, who don’t have specific experience to fall back on.

This isn't new. When I was laid off in 2012, I had a friend at a company with an open position but they were looking with someone with GWT (Google Web Toolkit) experience. Six weeks later they were still looking. You don't think a senior developer could learn GWT in six weeks, and bring a lot more to the table?

Re: Experienced engineers are struggling to get hired

#128
post #14

And we're having a hard time finding experienced and skilled engineers... trying to hire for a senior nodejs role, over a thousand applicants (most people just hit apply without reading the description, over half are disqualified for not meeting the basic requirements), dozens interviewed, and we've only managed to hire 1 person that seemed close to being qualified, and he quit after 2 months of barely working. We're…

I've had a similar time trying to hire an ML developer with any experience. What I suspect the market has gotten tougher, but not uniformly. If it's bad for experienced people with some form of personal network, it's extra bad for those who were already terrible when the market was tight. I also love how all the responses blame you and the company; maybe we've developed some unrealistic expectations over the past few…

Look for people at banks. We made our first ML Engineer hire a few months ago and almost all the candidates came from people working at banks. The salaries aren't FAANG and the talent is there. The person we hired was a former ME to boot.

Re: Experienced engineers are struggling to get hired

#129

well just last week I heard on NPR, may be Marketplace. They were saying there are these huge tech layoffs happening but unemployment claims haven't gone up that much because people are getting new jobs quickly. So basically I don't know what/who to believe.

Unemployment is capped very low compared to tech salaries, involves a bunch of paperwork, and requires you to attest that you're actively pursuing opportunties for work in your field. Lots of highly paid people don't bother with it, even when they might have qualified -- whether because they're lazy to lazy to do the paperwork for a small offset against their expenses, or because they intentionally took time away fro…

> Unemployment is capped very low compared to tech salaries, involves a bunch of paperwork, and requires you to attest that you're actively pursuing opportunties for work in your field.

This wasn't my experience in my state. While the first point may potentially be true for those making $250k+, getting unemployment took me less than 30 minutes going through an online portal. That's a trivial amount of work to make >$2k a month. The "attesting" was me submitting names of 3 companies I applied to while unemployed, and this was only asked of me 2 months into receiving unemployment benefits.

Re: Experienced engineers are struggling to get hired

#130
post #66

I am actively looking to hire - either freelance or full-time - an engineer to write open source golang code for my YC startup. However, I literally cannot afford FAANG salaries at my stage. It would literally bring my runway from n to n/5 years. And many candidates are asking for 400k+ salaries. I’d love to hire someone who knows what they’re doing but I’m just not able to find people who are both qualified and inte…

400k salaries would also be on quite the high end for your average FAANG! While they may take home that (or more) in total compensation per year due to stock, they'd have to be on the very high end of seniority at a big tech company to have that much in cash.

Right, but FAANG stock is very liquid. I’d you squint, it’s cash.
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