House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app • Hacker News Board

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#391

Post by ericmcer » Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 5:05 PM UTC

contrarian1234 wrote: post #131

throwaway237289 wrote: post #19

Don't be fooled by talk about security or privacy. This is simple Nation State realpolitik. TikTok is a propaganda threat controlled by a non-friendly state to the US. Any other way to look at this is naive.

Is there any evidence it's been used for propaganda? I don't use TikTok a lot, but it seems very non-political (maybe it's my filter bubble). The real cesspool of hatred and madness is Facebook - but of course Congress doesn't care too much about that. As far as I remember from the previous elections the Russian bots were operating on US based platforms

This is 100% anecdotal and lacks any kind of research, but... I heard it was a more subtle propaganda. The American feeds could have messages about how bad the economy is, how futile working is in a corrupt system, how depressed and traumatized your peers are.

On the opposite side you would fill it with messages about the virtues of hard work, stories of success and happiness, etc.

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#392

Post by hypeit » Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 5:05 PM UTC

corytheboyd wrote: post #323

This is going to be a shit show. I don’t even really know where I stand. On one hand, we have to acknowledge that an adversarial government has massively succeeded in installing a botnet in our population— even if that wasn’t the initial intent of ByteDance, it’s effectively true now. On the other hand, you can’t stop people from installing spyware, donating money to fraudster politicians, surrendering themselves to…

It's no worse that what Facebook or Twitter does (or has done). I would prefer to have a plurality of options and not be limited to apps that are owned by countries the US deems "allies".

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#393

Post by wongarsu » Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 5:06 PM UTC

karaterobot wrote: post #346

The arguments I can think of for why you wouldn't support restricting social media owned by foreign adversaries: * You don't believe social media companies can become literal or de facto extensions of the countries they are located in. * You don't believe social media can influence people's beliefs and behaviors. * You believe the above, but think a government cannot (or should not) regulate companies operating in it…

> You don't believe social media can influence people's beliefs and behaviors.

> You believe the above, but think a government cannot (or should not) regulate companies operating in its jurisdiction for those aforementioned purposes.

Isn't freedom of speech (as understood in the US) exactly that, a prohibition on any regulation that prevents you from influencing people's belief and behavior?

Sure, there are limits on free speech. You aren't allowed to freely slander people, to engage in false advertising, to commit fraud, treason, etc. But a new law that specifically prevents a company from showing you a selection of videos on fears that this selection might be biased in a way that influences people is another level. It not only prevents them from speaking directly, it specifically bans them because of how they might choose which legal speech they might show you.

I completely understand why people want to do it. Allowing foreign adversaries this much influence is dangerous. But it is also unprecedented, and because of the indirection feels like a heavier restriction than say banning a Chinese newspaper from publishing in the US.

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#394

Post by hypeit » Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 5:06 PM UTC

bilekas wrote: post #387

codekaze wrote: post #213

I think the primary argument for banning TikTok should be based on reciprocity rather than moral and/or security concerns. We can make similar arguments about the negative effects of Facebook, Instagram, and etc. even from the POVs of other countries, but the key issue here is that China heavily restricts foreign apps and services from operating in their market. If China is unwilling to allow US companies to compete…

> If China is unwilling to allow US companies to compete fairly in their digital ecosystem, why the hell should we continue to grant Chinese firms unrestricted access to our market? I understand what you're saying and I actually support the ban as tiktok can be used as a giant botnet at-will by Chinas government, but an eye for an eye doesn't end well and the US is supposed to be "free" so this part of the argument I…

How is it a botnet? Apple isn't going to allow botnet like behavior in any app it approves in the app store.

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#395

Post by ceejayoz » Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 5:07 PM UTC

harkinian wrote: post #371

ceejayoz wrote: post #272

How does this pass muster with the Constitution's forbidding of bills of attainder?

Does the US Constitution care about the rights of a foreign entity?

Yes, when within its jurisdiction. It'll use "citizens" where it does not, like voting. Tourists can't be summarily executed, for example.

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#396

Post by Leary » Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 5:07 PM UTC

corytheboyd wrote: post #323

This is going to be a shit show. I don’t even really know where I stand. On one hand, we have to acknowledge that an adversarial government has massively succeeded in installing a botnet in our population— even if that wasn’t the initial intent of ByteDance, it’s effectively true now. On the other hand, you can’t stop people from installing spyware, donating money to fraudster politicians, surrendering themselves to…

It’s going to pass Congress, signed into law. Then a federal judge will issue a preliminary injunction blocking it on first amendment grounds just like what happened both times with the Montana ban in 2023 and trumps executive order in 2020

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#397

Post by archagon » Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 5:07 PM UTC

The idea that a piece of software can be “banned” on a national level shows how far we’ve fallen in terms of general purpose computing. In a reasonable world, banning an app would be a non-sequitur, because you would always be able to find a mirror if you wanted to use it. Once governments discover that they have this power, they will make every effort to close the PC loophole and subsequently ban anything unfavorable to the ruling class and their patrons: torrent clients, software cracks, VPNs, end-to-end encryption, etc.

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#398

Post by ilrwbwrkhv » Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 5:08 PM UTC

avgDev wrote: post #355

ilrwbwrkhv wrote: post #347

Ridiculous bill. Maniacs are running everything these days only based on wild populism. Freedoms are over in America. Time to move to Saudi or some shit.

Oh yes, Saudi is definitely the freest country. /s

Thats what its not, and the US is turning into that. At that point just go there, get the free money tax free.

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#399

Post by whats_a_quasar » Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 5:08 PM UTC

aprilthird2021 wrote: post #200

JoshuaJB wrote: post #196

Broadcast news and radio are limited to at most 20% foreign ownership by default [1]. Applying a similar requirement to large internet news distributors seems reasonable if they want to do business in the US (even if "banned" they could still distribute content, they'd just be restricted in making money). [1] https://www.foster.com/newsroom-publications-The-Road-Map-Fo...

But, every American has access to even government propaganda of foreign adversaries. It's part of the 1st Amendment. Denying access to this information feels really weird. If TikTok doesn't divest, it will be banned and app stores will not be allowed to distribute it and the government telling app stores which content is and isn't approved feels like the PATRIOT Act all over again, all of us handing over our rights f…

Yes, and Americans will continue to have access to propaganda of foreign adversaries after this bill passes. The ownership restrictions on broadcast media that OP mentions don't stop Americans from going to the Chinese state news agencies website (https://english.news.cn/). These measures limit the ability of foreign corporations to control American news distribution platforms, not the ability of Americans who want to read Chinese propaganda to do so.

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#400

Post by wongarsu » Wed, Mar 13, 2024, 5:10 PM UTC

mise_en_place wrote: post #389

This type of protectionism could really backfire on the United States. We are a heavy net importer, and I don’t think our Congressmen understand what kind of can of worms this opens. The cynic in me wonders if Microsoft is behind all of this, as they stand to gain the most from a forced sale.

Not just a net importer, but also the main exporter of algorithmic feeds. If the US bans TikTok for fear of China manipulating public opinion via their algorithmic feed, lots of other countries might think twice whether they want to allow the same influence from the US via Twitter, Facebook, Threads, Youtube, Instagram, etc.