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House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

nytimes.com

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Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#381

Post by [deleted] »

BeetleB wrote: post #373
aprilthird2021 wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If China is unwilling to allow US companies to compete fairly in their digital ecosystem, why the hell should we continue to grant Chinese firms unrestricted access to our market? Because we are (used to be?) a country that believes in democracy and the will of our citizens. If people want to download a Chinese app and watch straight up Chinese news and propaganda (not even close to what TikTok actually is), they sh…

As other commenters have said, the GP's argument is not about free speech but about trade. Banning TikTok is not impinging on free speech. People are still free to say whatever they want on so many (unrestricted) platforms. If someone makes a video of a TikTok video and shares it on Youtube/Whatsapp, that's legal. The actual content is legal, so it's not a free speech/censorship issue. This is the equivalent of "We'v…

[deleted]

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#382

Post by LunaSea »

dmos62 wrote: post #197
andiareso wrote: post #13

I'm a big proponent of free speech and the first amendment, but I agree with the reasonings for banning it or forcing US owners. China most definitely has their hands in the data that TikTok amasses and given its popularity it's not an insignificant risk to U.S. citizens. We all know how easy it is to manipulate users... aka Cambridge Analytica. It'll be interesting to see what legal challenges come up if the bill pa…

Funnily enough, this is why I prefer Chinese devices and apps as a Westerner living in the West. My threat vector is my local security apparatus coercing my data or my devices. Correspondingly, If I were living in China, I'd consider it safer to use Western tech. Meanwhile, I don't really care what China does with my stuff while I'm not in China , I just hope that China doesn't collude with my local authorities.

And this is how your fridge sent spam emails and your thermometer took part in a DDoS attack.

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#383

Post by halfmatthalfcat »

dmos62 wrote: post #284
halfmatthalfcat wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not what China does with your specific information but what it does with the aggregate and how it can manipulate that aggregate.

What happens to your argument if you consider that Western actors can manipulate you the same as China? Even more so, given that they have more power over you (presuming you're based in the West).

My argument isn't assuming there is no manipulation from the West and as someone who lives in the West, I'd rather to have one less avenue for manipulation.

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#384

Post by tw1984 »

codekaze wrote: post #213

I think the primary argument for banning TikTok should be based on reciprocity rather than moral and/or security concerns. We can make similar arguments about the negative effects of Facebook, Instagram, and etc. even from the POVs of other countries, but the key issue here is that China heavily restricts foreign apps and services from operating in their market. If China is unwilling to allow US companies to compete…

> I think the primary argument for banning TikTok should be based on reciprocity rather than moral and/or security concerns.

Your argument is lame at best. Using your logics above, Chinese should ban all US EVs, mobile phones and network equipment on reciprocity. Tesla has a huge factory here in Shanghai, local government even offered it free land, it is fully own by Tesla, Tesla cars are everywhere. When is the last time you see Chinese EVs on US roads? I can freely go to any CCP official and tell him/her that my US designed iPhone is good, he/she might tell me that he/she is a iPhone user as well (and then ask me to piss off). What is the likelyhood that any US officials are using Huawei phones now?

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#385

Post by EGG_CREAM »

bluefishinit wrote: post #240
ThisIsMyAltAcct wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.

This level of censorship isn't good, it's very bad. It's also concerning the speed at which the government mobilized to do this. It's a rapid crackdown on free speech and individual freedom.

Trump tried to do this 4 years ago, how is that a "concerning" level of speed? The Committee on Foreign Investment in the United States has been reviewing Tik Tok's Project Texas initiative to handle US data separately for 2 years. This was not an out of the blue move. The citation for those claims are in the linked article.

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#386

Post by StarCyan »

mckn1ght wrote: post #336
potatototoo99 wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freedom of speech includes not being prohibited from listening to other people's speech.

The first amendment in the bill of rights in the US constitution prevents the US government from restricting the speech of US citizens. It doesn’t say anything about foreign nationals with no status in the US. The government also has the authority to deport whomever it likes, impose tariffs and restrict imports. Regardless of moral stance, that is the reality as I see it.

The first amendment prevents the US govt from restricting the speech of anyone in the US, not just citizens.

For example, the government cannot deport an immigrant simply because they criticized the government (they can deport for a variety of other reasons though).

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#387

Post by bilekas »

codekaze wrote: post #213

I think the primary argument for banning TikTok should be based on reciprocity rather than moral and/or security concerns. We can make similar arguments about the negative effects of Facebook, Instagram, and etc. even from the POVs of other countries, but the key issue here is that China heavily restricts foreign apps and services from operating in their market. If China is unwilling to allow US companies to compete…

> If China is unwilling to allow US companies to compete fairly in their digital ecosystem, why the hell should we continue to grant Chinese firms unrestricted access to our market?

I understand what you're saying and I actually support the ban as tiktok can be used as a giant botnet at-will by Chinas government, but an eye for an eye doesn't end well and the US is supposed to be "free" so this part of the argument I wouldn't agree with.

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#388

Post by retrochameleon »

contrarian1234 wrote: post #131
throwaway237289 wrote: post #19

Don't be fooled by talk about security or privacy. This is simple Nation State realpolitik. TikTok is a propaganda threat controlled by a non-friendly state to the US. Any other way to look at this is naive.

Is there any evidence it's been used for propaganda? I don't use TikTok a lot, but it seems very non-political (maybe it's my filter bubble). The real cesspool of hatred and madness is Facebook - but of course Congress doesn't care too much about that. As far as I remember from the previous elections the Russian bots were operating on US based platforms

I remember seeing a study that compared the content TikTok served to children in China vs other countries. I would have to look and find it again.

But basically, Chinese children got lots of science, engineering, and other educational content, while other countries got your run of the mill generic time-wasting nothingburger nonsense kind of content.

Food for thought.

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#389

Post by mise_en_place »

This type of protectionism could really backfire on the United States. We are a heavy net importer, and I don’t think our Congressmen understand what kind of can of worms this opens. The cynic in me wonders if Microsoft is behind all of this, as they stand to gain the most from a forced sale.

Re: House passes bill to force TikTok sale from Chinese owner or ban the app

#390

Post by sillyalbatross »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #269
aprilthird2021 wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But, every American has access to even government propaganda of foreign adversaries. It's part of the 1st Amendment. Denying access to this information feels really weird. If TikTok doesn't divest, it will be banned and app stores will not be allowed to distribute it and the government telling app stores which content is and isn't approved feels like the PATRIOT Act all over again, all of us handing over our rights f…

> every American has access to even government propaganda of foreign adversaries. It's part of the 1st Amendment. Denying access to this information feels really weird As it should. Fortunately, this bill doesn’t do that. If ByteDance won’t sell, TikTok gets removed from app stores. TikTok.com will remain free to access. The bill curtails distribution and amplification, not speech.

The bill explicitly allows the President to designate a "website" as a threat. How that would be applied exactly is a different question, which is why many argue that this is a Pandora's box not worth opening.
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