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Vehicle brakes produce charged particles that may harm public health: study

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Re: Vehicle brakes produce charged particles that may harm public health: study

#171

Post by Retric »

ipqk wrote: post #166
autoexec wrote: post #124

The problem of "brake dust" on human health and air quality has been known for a long time ( https://phys.org/news/2020-01-air-pollution-effects-immune-c... ) before that there were also issues with asbestos in brakes, but thankfully those haven't been used since the 90s as far as I know. This is the first I'm hearing about electrically charged particles though. The bottom line is that proximity to traffic is horribl…

And EVs make some problems worse, such as tire dust because they're heavier than an equivalent ICE car.

Actually, the opposite is true because they make heavy use of regenerative breaking.

What EV’s produce more of is tire particulates due to weight.

PS: And now the post says tires.

Re: Vehicle brakes produce charged particles that may harm public health: study

#172

Post by yaomtc »

Retric wrote: post #171
ipqk wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And EVs make some problems worse, such as tire dust because they're heavier than an equivalent ICE car.

Actually, the opposite is true because they make heavy use of regenerative breaking. What EV’s produce more of is tire particulates due to weight. PS: And now the post says tires.

They said tire dust, though, and I don't see an "edited" note there

Re: Vehicle brakes produce charged particles that may harm public health: study

#173

Post by autoexec »

jasonfarnon wrote: post #138
CharlesW wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/su6203a8.htm "In the United States, it is widely accepted that economically disadvantaged and minority populations share a disproportionate burden of air pollution exposure and risk (26,27). A growing body of evidence demonstrates that minority populations and persons of lower socioeconomic status experience higher residential exposure to traffic and traffic-related air pollu…

It's not surprising that minorities would be exposed to more traffic given the proportion that live in urban areas, but that doesn't rule out that the poorest in the country (minorities and whites) are not the most exposed. I guess my basic question is, are the poorest people still living in city centers? In my city the central, densest areas became some of the wealthiest, the quieter outlying areas the poorest.

> I guess my basic question is, are the poorest people still living in city centers?

I suppose that there likely are small numbers of people living far outside of cities and away from traffic, like up in the mountains of Appalachia or living off the grid in tents or in communes deep in forests, who are poorer than people you'd typically find in urban areas, but it's still the poor in the US who are dealing with the worst of the harms traffic causes compared to the better off/wealthy. They're also the least able to mitigate those harms or deal with the fallout caused by them.

Re: Vehicle brakes produce charged particles that may harm public health: study

#174

Post by [deleted] »

woodruffw wrote: post #165
jasonfarnon wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not surprising that minorities would be exposed to more traffic given the proportion that live in urban areas, but that doesn't rule out that the poorest in the country (minorities and whites) are not the most exposed. I guess my basic question is, are the poorest people still living in city centers? In my city the central, densest areas became some of the wealthiest, the quieter outlying areas the poorest.

Why do you assume that fine particulate is at the highest in city centers? It's often higher than average , but the highest is frequently outside of the city center, where highways have been constructed through pre-existing, poorer neighborhoods. The South Bronx is the famous example of this[1]. [1]: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/apr/04/new-york-sou...

[deleted]

Re: Vehicle brakes produce charged particles that may harm public health: study

#175

Post by jader201 »

actinium226 wrote: post #135
thejazzman wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It DOES bring them to a stop in newer models. Not sure which year it started but it's been at least 2 But I know what you mean from my older models

Are you talking about the hold mode they introduced a couple years back? It will bring the car to a stop but (as compared to the previous mode where you had to press the break yourself below ~4-5 mph), but I'll be good money it's using the brakes to do so. Particularly when it's activated on an incline.

I drive an EV6, and I’m almost confident it uses (or can use) regenerative braking to come to a complete stop.

If I use the ePedal or the brake paddle, the stop is super gradual and you never feel the “grab” that you feel when using the brake. Also, I can sometimes feel/see it slightly rolling (so it’s not even truly a complete stop).

I’ve seen some people swear that the EV6 always uses friction braking at stops, but again, I’m pretty sure this just isn’t true.

Re: Vehicle brakes produce charged particles that may harm public health: study

#176

Post by Terr_ »

beezle wrote: post #169
daft_pink wrote: post #87

Just want to point out that most electric and hybrid vehicles use regenerative braking most of the time and only use real brakes at very slow speeds or in emergencies. So it might be totally misleading to say that electric vehicles are the problem, when they are probably the solution.

Inspection station in my state made comment to me that EVs are failing inspection for rusted brake components because of their heavy use of regen. Add to cost of ownership.

> Inspection station in my state made comment to me that EVs are failing inspection for rusted brake components because of their heavy use of regen.

Are you suggesting some metal brake components have unusual rust because of disuse, where they aren't being used regularly enough for friction to "clean" their surfaces?

Otherwise I don't see how regenerative breaking could cause rust, since the braking force is supplied by electrical fields.

Re: Vehicle brakes produce charged particles that may harm public health: study

#177

Post by pornel »

xdavidliu wrote: post #129
imbusy111 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article has weird reasoning. If we remove tailpipe emissions, which are by far the largest, then brake/tire wear emissions become visible and are next in the list to deal with. But we won't deal with the latter before the former is dealt with.

> If we remove tailpipe emissions, which are by far the largest im gonna need a source on your claim. heres a source that claims the opposite https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2023/07/0... > our brakes and tires isn’t benign, either. Tests by Emissions Analytics, an engineering consulting company based in England, found tires produce about 2,000 times more particle pollution by mass than tailpipes.

This is by mass, which is a weasel metric that discounts all gaseous emissions, and the smallest particulates that stay in the air.

Impact on health is not linearly proportional to the mass.

It's almost the opposite - the smallest particles can linger in the air and get absorbed. You could eat a chunk of a tire without a significant health effect, but breathing the same mass of almost any gas would kill you.

Re: Vehicle brakes produce charged particles that may harm public health: study

#178

Post by kube-system »

pornel wrote: post #177
xdavidliu wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If we remove tailpipe emissions, which are by far the largest im gonna need a source on your claim. heres a source that claims the opposite https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2023/07/0... > our brakes and tires isn’t benign, either. Tests by Emissions Analytics, an engineering consulting company based in England, found tires produce about 2,000 times more particle pollution by mass than tailpipes.

This is by mass , which is a weasel metric that discounts all gaseous emissions, and the smallest particulates that stay in the air. Impact on health is not linearly proportional to the mass. It's almost the opposite - the smallest particles can linger in the air and get absorbed. You could eat a chunk of a tire without a significant health effect, but breathing the same mass of almost any gas would kill you.

Gas has mass, but regardless the word 'particulate' already discounts all gaseous emissions. Particulate emissions are liquid or solid by definition.

CO2 is bad for other environmental reasons, but it doesn't get stuck in our lungs.

Re: Vehicle brakes produce charged particles that may harm public health: study

#179

Post by Retric »

yaomtc wrote: post #172
Retric wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, the opposite is true because they make heavy use of regenerative breaking. What EV’s produce more of is tire particulates due to weight. PS: And now the post says tires.

They said tire dust, though, and I don't see an "edited" note there

Said breaks when I replied, though the article is talking about breaks so it’s an easy slip up.

Re: Vehicle brakes produce charged particles that may harm public health: study

#180

Post by savrajsingh »

autoexec wrote: post #124

The problem of "brake dust" on human health and air quality has been known for a long time ( https://phys.org/news/2020-01-air-pollution-effects-immune-c... ) before that there were also issues with asbestos in brakes, but thankfully those haven't been used since the 90s as far as I know. This is the first I'm hearing about electrically charged particles though. The bottom line is that proximity to traffic is horribl…

what about the NYC subway / PATH train? The air quality there is pretty bad -- the trains use standard brakes.
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