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For polyglots, there's something special about their native tongue

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Re: For polyglots, there's something special about their native tongue

#41

Post by mzs »

aragonite wrote: post #17

In my observation of non-native speakers working & living in the US (a group to which I belong), there's also something special about number-words. If you are a non-native speaker, even if you boast near-perfect English pronunciation and fluency, and are accustomed to using English in all aspects of your life, not just for communication but for e.g. personal note-taking, and even if you haven't spoken/written your na…

I've encountered that as well. Someone at work tells me a number of something to check in English, I have to write it down. I can't even see the number in my head. It's the complete opposite if someone tells me say a phone number in Polish. I lived less than a year outside of the US since October 1981.

Re: For polyglots, there's something special about their native tongue

#42

Post by MichaelRo »

a_c_s wrote: post #12
brabel wrote: post #7

If you learn any language as an adult, chances are you're never going to become as fluent as a native speaker, no matter how long you live in a second language environment. I say that as someone who has done it myself, and seen a lot of friends and family going through the same process. Children are a different story. They can learn a language and start speaking just like native speakers, local accent and all, within…

Sorry to be a curmudgeon but I get tired of all these claims about how well young children speak second languages. A young child saying "Vanilla ice cream please!" often sounds more like "Ganiwa ishe! cweam! pweese!". A typical 4-year-old speaking English substitutes many sounds for another because they developmentally aren't able to make the right sounds yet. Their intonation is also all over the place. If an adult…

I've observed my kiddo when he was a toddler and I think there might be an inflection point when they are very young and don't speak so well, when they might be able to learn any language with ease, precisely because they don't recognize let alone speak even their own so well. I recall my kid was watching TV and all and at some point while eating he pointed to a drawing on a cocoa box and said "monkey!" in English, and indeed it was a monkey. Must have picked it up from cartoons or something.

But then there's a point of no return when they learn enough native language from which point on any attempt at a foreign one becomes deliberate practice that requires effort. And this point of no return follows very early from the point when they start to speak.

Re: For polyglots, there's something special about their native tongue

#43

Post by evertedsphere »

aragonite wrote: post #17

In my observation of non-native speakers working & living in the US (a group to which I belong), there's also something special about number-words. If you are a non-native speaker, even if you boast near-perfect English pronunciation and fluency, and are accustomed to using English in all aspects of your life, not just for communication but for e.g. personal note-taking, and even if you haven't spoken/written your na…

My impression from having asked people about this exact problem—I meet plenty of recent immigrants here in Paris—is this goes away quickly if you have to, say, work a customer-facing job where handling money is part of your duties, but much slower otherwise.

(Of course, you can also simulate that experience by drilling this for ten minutes a day until it becomes second nature.)

Re: For polyglots, there's something special about their native tongue

#44

Post by Jcampuzano2 »

aragonite wrote: post #17

In my observation of non-native speakers working & living in the US (a group to which I belong), there's also something special about number-words. If you are a non-native speaker, even if you boast near-perfect English pronunciation and fluency, and are accustomed to using English in all aspects of your life, not just for communication but for e.g. personal note-taking, and even if you haven't spoken/written your na…

I live in a non-english speaking country and sometimes go days without english at all even though its my native tounge.

I agree, the one thing I tend to still do literal translations in my head for is for numbers and arithmetic. Its just so much more cumbersome mentally for some reason to do the math in my non-native language.

Re: For polyglots, there's something special about their native tongue

#45

Post by FredPret »

aragonite wrote: post #17

In my observation of non-native speakers working & living in the US (a group to which I belong), there's also something special about number-words. If you are a non-native speaker, even if you boast near-perfect English pronunciation and fluency, and are accustomed to using English in all aspects of your life, not just for communication but for e.g. personal note-taking, and even if you haven't spoken/written your na…

Linguist John McWhorter has a fantastic course on human language on The Great Courses / Wondrium / Audible.

He specifically talks about this! Apparently the spoken word, the written word, song lyrics, and numbers are all processed in different parts of the brain almost as if they were different languages. He even mentions the same phenomenon as you and I think he also said this is the first part that gets hardwired into your brain as a kid, leaving you stuck counting in your mother tongue forever.

Re: For polyglots, there's something special about their native tongue

#46

Post by FredPret »

mzs wrote: post #41
aragonite wrote: post #17

In my observation of non-native speakers working & living in the US (a group to which I belong), there's also something special about number-words. If you are a non-native speaker, even if you boast near-perfect English pronunciation and fluency, and are accustomed to using English in all aspects of your life, not just for communication but for e.g. personal note-taking, and even if you haven't spoken/written your na…

I've encountered that as well. Someone at work tells me a number of something to check in English, I have to write it down. I can't even see the number in my head. It's the complete opposite if someone tells me say a phone number in Polish. I lived less than a year outside of the US since October 1981.

What was emigrating from Poland in 1981 like?

Re: For polyglots, there's something special about their native tongue

#47

Post by K0balt »

aragonite wrote: post #17

In my observation of non-native speakers working & living in the US (a group to which I belong), there's also something special about number-words. If you are a non-native speaker, even if you boast near-perfect English pronunciation and fluency, and are accustomed to using English in all aspects of your life, not just for communication but for e.g. personal note-taking, and even if you haven't spoken/written your na…

As a native English speaker, I speak primarily Spanish in my day to day life (Spanish speaking wife and children) and have done so for about 15 years. I’ve had to purposefully build relationships in -both- languages in order to feel normal when speaking English with them.

I can’t even describe the absolute weirdness of saying “I love you” to my wife after building our relationship over years in only. Spanish. There is definitely some kind of personality disconnect when I learn language and culture by immersion as an adult.

And yes, numbers are problematic. Spanish me really, really, really sucks at math. Even trying to do basic subtraction or calculate a trivial tip ends up with internal translations to work out.

As a bizarre aside, Once in a while I can be nudged into a temporary unresponsive state by the right timing of a language change by my speaking partner.

When I “snap out of it” it’s like the words went into a que but nobody fetched them so I went into some kind of waiting condition. It’s really weird and makes me wonder if there might not be a lot of ways to trigger altered states through similar hacks.

Re: For polyglots, there's something special about their native tongue

#48

Post by ArchOversight »

aragonite wrote: post #17

In my observation of non-native speakers working & living in the US (a group to which I belong), there's also something special about number-words. If you are a non-native speaker, even if you boast near-perfect English pronunciation and fluency, and are accustomed to using English in all aspects of your life, not just for communication but for e.g. personal note-taking, and even if you haven't spoken/written your na…

I'm Dutch, my first language was Dutch, my second language was German and my third language was English.

I count and do all my numbers in English, UNLESS I am in The Netherlands and I have just been talking Dutch then I do it in Dutch. I do not switch to Dutch even internally for my internal monologue when I encounter numbers.

Re: For polyglots, there's something special about their native tongue

#49

Post by peterfirefly »

FredPret wrote: post #46
mzs wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've encountered that as well. Someone at work tells me a number of something to check in English, I have to write it down. I can't even see the number in my head. It's the complete opposite if someone tells me say a phone number in Polish. I lived less than a year outside of the US since October 1981.

What was emigrating from Poland in 1981 like?

Like the "Coffee, coffee, coffee" scene from "Moscow on the Hudson", I guess. And also very lonely with all their friends and family left behind.

Re: For polyglots, there's something special about their native tongue

#50

Post by humansareok1 »

aragonite wrote: post #17

In my observation of non-native speakers working & living in the US (a group to which I belong), there's also something special about number-words. If you are a non-native speaker, even if you boast near-perfect English pronunciation and fluency, and are accustomed to using English in all aspects of your life, not just for communication but for e.g. personal note-taking, and even if you haven't spoken/written your na…

If you think English counting is bad you should see French!
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