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For polyglots, there's something special about their native tongue

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Re: For polyglots, there's something special about their native tongue

#11

Post by Tmpod »

Havoc wrote: post #9

Presumably they’ve adjusted for actual use? I grew up with German as first but find English (2nd) easier thanks to more use. And same for third lang (Afrikaans) - ease feels directly correlated to usage not order

I think perhaps both use and order have an effect on the cognitive effort one has to put in to speak in a language.

You probably started learning English at a fairly young age (less than 15?), which certainly helped you cement it as a "native" language. Yet, it is interesting that you report Afrikaans as being easier than German. When did you start learning it?

Re: For polyglots, there's something special about their native tongue

#12

Post by a_c_s »

brabel wrote: post #7

If you learn any language as an adult, chances are you're never going to become as fluent as a native speaker, no matter how long you live in a second language environment. I say that as someone who has done it myself, and seen a lot of friends and family going through the same process. Children are a different story. They can learn a language and start speaking just like native speakers, local accent and all, within…

Sorry to be a curmudgeon but I get tired of all these claims about how well young children speak second languages.

A young child saying "Vanilla ice cream please!" often sounds more like "Ganiwa ishe! cweam! pweese!".

A typical 4-year-old speaking English substitutes many sounds for another because they developmentally aren't able to make the right sounds yet. Their intonation is also all over the place.

If an adult had their accent it would be barely intelligible (and in fact many small children are hard to understand by people who don't spend a lot of time with them).

Here's one speech sound development guide for English: https://childdevelopment.com.au/resources/child-development-...

It is amazing to watch how fast small children grow and develop but we also (rightfully) grade them on a curve. It is when we compare them to adults that somehow we forget the curve being applied.

Re: For polyglots, there's something special about their native tongue

#13

Post by Tmpod »

Arc_Orion wrote: post #6

This makes sense. I have fairly good L2 German production, but I go from conversant to barely coherent when fatigued. My L1 English production diminishes, but not nearly as much. Likewise, my friends who speak English as an L2, even those who have spoken it with a strong command for over a decade, will struggle when very tired. Though we usually speak in English (her English is way better than my German), I've had a…

Yeah, I have similar experiences. When fatigued, my English speech stops being as fluid and my stuttering intensifies (akin to higher stress levels). I've also observed that in those cases, mixing language becomes much more common, incorporating words from my native language in English, and vice-versa too.

Re: For polyglots, there's something special about their native tongue

#14

Post by [deleted] »

a_c_s wrote: post #12
brabel wrote: post #7

If you learn any language as an adult, chances are you're never going to become as fluent as a native speaker, no matter how long you live in a second language environment. I say that as someone who has done it myself, and seen a lot of friends and family going through the same process. Children are a different story. They can learn a language and start speaking just like native speakers, local accent and all, within…

Sorry to be a curmudgeon but I get tired of all these claims about how well young children speak second languages. A young child saying "Vanilla ice cream please!" often sounds more like "Ganiwa ishe! cweam! pweese!". A typical 4-year-old speaking English substitutes many sounds for another because they developmentally aren't able to make the right sounds yet. Their intonation is also all over the place. If an adult…

[deleted]

Re: For polyglots, there's something special about their native tongue

#15

Post by OnACoffeeBreak »

Arc_Orion wrote: post #6

This makes sense. I have fairly good L2 German production, but I go from conversant to barely coherent when fatigued. My L1 English production diminishes, but not nearly as much. Likewise, my friends who speak English as an L2, even those who have spoken it with a strong command for over a decade, will struggle when very tired. Though we usually speak in English (her English is way better than my German), I've had a…

Regarding the follow-up...

I grew up speaking only Russian. I moved to the US when I was 15. I had 7 years of deliberate English practice prior to the move and became fluid in it within a year of moving.

That was about 30 years ago. Because I moved alone, and didn't seek out Russian speakers for this 30 year duration, I only occasionally spoke Russian. The result is that now my Russian feels like a second language. When speaking it, I constantly struggle to translate from English. It doesn't feel like my Russian comprehension diminished, but speaking it is a struggle.

The shift to English being the primary language happened in stages. The last noticeable change for me was when I would need to count something. For a decade, maybe longer, I would default to Russian in my head when counting. The change was gradual, but now it's English all the way.

Fun story... During the first year after the move, I remember being freaked out when I had my first dream where I spoke English.

Re: For polyglots, there's something special about their native tongue

#16

Post by rayiner »

OnACoffeeBreak wrote: post #15
Arc_Orion wrote: post #6

This makes sense. I have fairly good L2 German production, but I go from conversant to barely coherent when fatigued. My L1 English production diminishes, but not nearly as much. Likewise, my friends who speak English as an L2, even those who have spoken it with a strong command for over a decade, will struggle when very tired. Though we usually speak in English (her English is way better than my German), I've had a…

Regarding the follow-up... I grew up speaking only Russian. I moved to the US when I was 15. I had 7 years of deliberate English practice prior to the move and became fluid in it within a year of moving. That was about 30 years ago. Because I moved alone, and didn't seek out Russian speakers for this 30 year duration, I only occasionally spoke Russian. The result is that now my Russian feels like a second language. W…

I learned English around 5-6, and what’s weird to me is I have vivid memories from before that where I’m speaking English but clearly wasn’t.

Re: For polyglots, there's something special about their native tongue

#17

Post by aragonite »

In my observation of non-native speakers working & living in the US (a group to which I belong), there's also something special about number-words. If you are a non-native speaker, even if you boast near-perfect English pronunciation and fluency, and are accustomed to using English in all aspects of your life, not just for communication but for e.g. personal note-taking, and even if you haven't spoken/written your native language with anyone in months, the moment you need to count (a sizable enough collection), or you need to enter on your computer a numerical passcode received on your smartphone, you (most likely) find yourself reverting (in your (sub)vocaliztion) to the number-words of your mother tongue, because doing the same thing in English just feels so much more cumbersome.

Re: For polyglots, there's something special about their native tongue

#18

Post by simonbarker87 »

a_c_s wrote: post #12
brabel wrote: post #7

If you learn any language as an adult, chances are you're never going to become as fluent as a native speaker, no matter how long you live in a second language environment. I say that as someone who has done it myself, and seen a lot of friends and family going through the same process. Children are a different story. They can learn a language and start speaking just like native speakers, local accent and all, within…

Sorry to be a curmudgeon but I get tired of all these claims about how well young children speak second languages. A young child saying "Vanilla ice cream please!" often sounds more like "Ganiwa ishe! cweam! pweese!". A typical 4-year-old speaking English substitutes many sounds for another because they developmentally aren't able to make the right sounds yet. Their intonation is also all over the place. If an adult…

Just a thought from someone who speaks English and a smattering of Spanish.

If the child can correctly express the idea/intent they want and be understood then arguably they have learned that part of the language. Sure it might not sound how an adult would be likewise they probably don’t in their native language either right?

I doubt anyone is saying that kids learn to speak the language perfectly but clearly there is a pattern where by they are able to understand and express themselves faster than adults - even if they sound childish still.

Re: For polyglots, there's something special about their native tongue

#19

Post by kelvie »

aragonite wrote: post #17

In my observation of non-native speakers working & living in the US (a group to which I belong), there's also something special about number-words. If you are a non-native speaker, even if you boast near-perfect English pronunciation and fluency, and are accustomed to using English in all aspects of your life, not just for communication but for e.g. personal note-taking, and even if you haven't spoken/written your na…

Does it have to do with syllables?

I use English mostly (and am certainly a native English speaker), but use my mother tongue to memorize numbers, as mine (Cantonese) has single syllable numbers. I think I can keep 5-7 numbers in short-term memory in english, whereas I think it's closer to 10 or 12 in Cantonese.

Re: For polyglots, there's something special about their native tongue

#20

Post by Arc_Orion »

OnACoffeeBreak wrote: post #15
Arc_Orion wrote: post #6

This makes sense. I have fairly good L2 German production, but I go from conversant to barely coherent when fatigued. My L1 English production diminishes, but not nearly as much. Likewise, my friends who speak English as an L2, even those who have spoken it with a strong command for over a decade, will struggle when very tired. Though we usually speak in English (her English is way better than my German), I've had a…

Regarding the follow-up... I grew up speaking only Russian. I moved to the US when I was 15. I had 7 years of deliberate English practice prior to the move and became fluid in it within a year of moving. That was about 30 years ago. Because I moved alone, and didn't seek out Russian speakers for this 30 year duration, I only occasionally spoke Russian. The result is that now my Russian feels like a second language. W…

Yeah, this is something that I'd love to see research on, though I imagine it might be difficult to find enough people to act as subjects.

That first dream in a target language is always so weird! It's one of those things people say happens when a language first "clicks" for you, but it always feels momentous, even if it happens earlier than expected.

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