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Men In Tech

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Re: Men In Tech

#131

Post by tomp »

koeselitz wrote: post #100
tomp wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You'd be surprised the shit women deal with. I'm not sure, but I think you're being too general. I'd rather state this: You'd be surprised by the shit *attractive* women have to deal with. And I 'm pretty sure that attractive men have to deal with the same kind of "shit". They just react to it differently. Edit: I expected the downvotes, but please reply, do you disagree with the stated facts (i.e. does you experie…

So let me boil this down. You don't believe women in general have to deal with "shit" - you think it's attractive women that deal with that shit. And moreover the fact that they're women has nothing to do with it; the only bias here is against attractive people in general. If I'm reading this correctly, you're saying sexism is not a problem at all in the real world. Did I make a mistake in reading your comment?

No, I don't think sexism is a problem. Rape is a problem. Child pornography is a problem. Hunger, drought, tsunamis are problems. Huge companies poisoning people, land, and wasting tons of food is a problem.

Sexism? Just a bunch of people who live practically perfect lives, and have no problems, and are bored, so they create some.

I'm slowly finding this conversation too Orwellian. Why do you care about what I think?!? I might be a phedophile, a rasist, but as long as I'm not hurting other people, I'm better that 99% of the world population. I find some people (so far only women) attractive, therefore I'd like to have sex with them, if I got a chance (I don't actively seek such chances, because sex with most women is boring, in my experience, unless (my) emotions are evolved). I don't make sexual comments at work, not because I would think they are inappropriate per se (I wouldn't make comments about someone being fat either, not because I think it's unappropriate, but because I don't want to hurt their feelings even more without good reason), but because at work, I like to focus on work.

Edit: to put things into perspective: my grandmother was born in 1930s. There were 8 children. One died very young. Her father was killed by nazi collaborators. He had a job. Her mother didn't. She had to support a family of 7, I don't know how. They made a drink out of tree bark, because coffee wasn't available.

My grandmother smiles more that most people I see commuting daily on the London subway. When people say, "we have a crisis", it makes me smile and think how deluded they are...

Re: Men In Tech

#132

Post by tomp »

adaml_623 wrote: post #126
tomp wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading your reply, I had an idea... Maybe women perceive men as being sexually discriminating because they only receive sexual comments from men . When I try to think about it, I (as a man) also receive much more sexual comments from men. Maybe it is simply that men are much more open talking about sex, and when we do it with everybody, men and women alike, but when women hear it, they think it has something to do w…

My general impression is that women will receive comments from other women that are generally different to the comments from men. And while these female-to-female comments may not be sexual per se they are not always going to be 100% positive when a women is trying to do something non-traditional. Basically some other women will often be just as discouraging and as sexist as some men. They will reinforce the same str…

> They will reinforce the same strict gender stereotypes

What if they are just voicing their opinions?!?

I had a girlfriend that was very "stereotypical" - I practically had to beg her after every meal no to go to the kitchen to clean up, but to stay with me at the table and just talk and relax. Is she wrong by being who she is, just because she is "reinforcing illogical stereotypes"?

People are different. Be yourself, hang out with people who accept you for who you are. Let other people be.

Re: Men In Tech

#133

Post by wpietri »

georgieporgie wrote: post #130
wpietri wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your theory that apparent sexism in the tech community is actually only poor social skills requires that sexism in the tech community has died out. Because otherwise poor social skills would just make the tech community sexism more obvious than mainstream sexism. Which I think is exactly the case. Sexism is a millennia-deep, society-wide problem. I think it's absurd to say that the tech community is actually not sexi…

Your theory that apparent sexism in the tech community is actually only poor social skills I said "largely the expression of". requires that sexism in the tech community has died out It absolutely does not. Because otherwise poor social skills would just make the tech community sexism more obvious than mainstream sexism. And there you go. It's unlikely that misogyny and 'real' sexism exist among the tech community at…

You can't have it both ways. You started out by saying, "I think this is largely the expression of terrible, terrible social skills." If our level of sexism and sexist behavior is the same as the rest of society, then social skills are irrelevant. If lower social skills magnify existing sexism, then either our level of bad behavior should be much higher or our level of sexism would have to be lower.

I think the reason it comes up here is that it's a field that attracts smart, idealistic people who are unlikely to be consciously sexist (but still have a lot of bad behaviors and unconscious attitudes). Another factor is that the low ratio of women makes it easier for sexist and misogynistic subcultures and workplaces to exist.

Re: Men In Tech

#134

Post by scotty79 »

JanezStupar wrote: post #74
scotty79 wrote: post #67

OP could make his statement much stronger if he wrote the whole piece from perspective of bit asexual straight man working in environment dominated by gay men who would introduce in daily worklife all kinds of innuendos often forgetting that protagonist is not interested in them and also not very interested in sexual layer of human interaction. I think the innate homophoby of the readers could help them to better und…

There is no need to be a slightly asexual man in gay men environment. It is quite enough that you are a man in a mostly female environment. When a woman approaches you and you turn her down then strange shit starts happening.

Maybe but most of target audience of such story doesn't have first hand experience of working in mostly female environment and while reading about it they would imagine happyland of pure bliss with a bit of thrill.

I think straight men have similar level of uneasiness about gay men as women about straight men. Mostly safe despite all the silly stuff but...

Re: Men In Tech

#135

Post by scotty79 »

robconery wrote: post #127
scotty79 wrote: post #67

OP could make his statement much stronger if he wrote the whole piece from perspective of bit asexual straight man working in environment dominated by gay men who would introduce in daily worklife all kinds of innuendos often forgetting that protagonist is not interested in them and also not very interested in sexual layer of human interaction. I think the innate homophoby of the readers could help them to better und…

The trick in pulling this article off is you can go too far with your stereotypes and "artistic license" - actually offending the people you're trying to defend. And I've worked there - in a place where gay men outnumbered the men. I've been cornered - shoved in between two refrigerators while a guy who outweighed me by 50 pounds leaned against me and went for my bits - all the while telling me "it's time to come out…

:-(

I think you can relate better to victims of similar assaults. Most of them are women.

Point of the story would be to help reader to understand how unsafe can someone feel at work when people pass sexual remarks like it's nothing. OP's post doesn't really achieve that.

Re: Men In Tech

#136

Post by redwood »

sigmaxipi wrote: post #26
redwood wrote: post #22

Wtf, sure we need to be cognizant of discrimination against men in our society, and I think there are great arguments to be made that men are generally portrayed as dumb in TV shows, for example. However we cannot equate men's and women's experiences of the world we live in. I want to, and have the mistake of doing so many times, but I've since seen how wrong I've been. My female friend told me the following which ra…

>Women's life experiences are thus characterized by a constant and unending fear of sexual assault. >When you ask men the same question---to list what they do to protect themselves in their daily life... --> the answer is just about nothing. Why is this fear a bad thing for women? Interesting fact: men are more likely to be victims of violent crime[1] and this has been pretty much true throughout history[2] though it…

While the fear may mean better survival skills its important to be cognizant of this significant difference between men's and women's life experiences if we're to grok their lives better. This is especially important for big guys (>6') to remember: that their daily experience is nothing like women.

Re: Men In Tech

#137

Post by captainsaveaho »

Wait... Rob can afford a car? I thought he had to ride to work on a paddle board? And I'm also going to call BS on his bulging pecs and biceps. I bet he couldn't even bench the bar for 10 reps.

Re: Men In Tech

#139

Post by captainsaveaho »

NotMyMorals wrote: post #110

Have to admit I don't really care if there are fewer women in tech, or if they feel uncomfortable in a boy's club, and don't see any reason why we should have to change to make them feel better. Just because "sexism" is against your moral code doesn't mean it's against mine. The old joke is true - to avoid sexual harassment accusations: 1) be attractive, 2) don't be unattractive. I've dated plenty of women at work, f…

Are you hiring?

Re: Men In Tech

#140

Post by banter »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #75
scotty79 wrote: post #67

OP could make his statement much stronger if he wrote the whole piece from perspective of bit asexual straight man working in environment dominated by gay men who would introduce in daily worklife all kinds of innuendos often forgetting that protagonist is not interested in them and also not very interested in sexual layer of human interaction. I think the innate homophoby of the readers could help them to better und…

Yes, lets read an article by a straight man about how the gays kept him out of the fashion industry by finding him attractive and behaving effeminately. Then lets try to take it even half as seriously as articles about how those geeks keep women out of tech by finding them attractive and behaving nerdily.

You do realize that there are plenty of gay men in the tech industry, don't you? You also know that "behaving effeminately" is not characteristic of all homosexual men, right? Consider, instead, a tech environment dominated by gay men and the article is about, as you put it, "how those geeks keep men out of tech by finding them attractive and behaving nerdily."

Scotty79 may be onto more than is immediately obvious, and you do his idea a disservice to dismiss it so quickly. In the OP's article, the victim of the gender-based injustices writes that he wrongly thought he had left the harassment and the immaturity of others behind him--back in high school and college. I'm almost certain, however, that many gays, of any gender and in any industry, feel the same way when they have to deal with their coworkers saying things like "that's gay," "no homo," "don't be a fag, man," and for the gay men in particular, "don't be a pussy," "stop acting like a bitch," "quit acting like a girl," etc. It's quite obvious, too, that the misogyny carries over when men are criticized for "behaving effeminately," as if there could possibly be an absolute definition of femininity and that it is wrong for men to approach it, even slightly.[1]

As mentioned earlier, Scotty's suggestion was not about imagining the struggles of a straight man trying to break into a typically 'gay' industry; it was about writing from the perspective of a "straight man working in [an] environment dominated by gay men." That is, any environment (the tech industry, in our case) which is hypothetically dominated by homosexual men in a way similar to the female dominance found in the OP's article. The main difference between the two posts would be that, as per Scotty's suggestion, the story's protagonist would be the sexual target of other men--giving a, perhaps, more faithful glimpse into the tech world women have to deal with every day. The OP's hypothetical role-reversal throughout the entire world and history, while somehow still attributing the same brutish machismo to those running things, is an interesting change indeed, but it depends quite heavily on the reader's willing suspension of disbelief.

At any rate, I'm glad Rob took the time to write "Men in Tech." I was really worried, for a moment at the start, that the narrative would turn into one of those, "men can hypothetically deal with this type of harassment, why can't you?" I'm so glad it didn't.

1. It's worth reading Michael S Kimmel's "Masculinity as Homophobia," since it discusses how men fear being 'unmasked' as either gay or effeminate, and so overcompensate by emphasizing the perceived homosexuality or effeminacy of others.

http://www.stthomas.edu/diversity/files/Masculinity_as_Homop...

http://faculty.ucc.edu/psysoc-stokes/Masculinity.pdf

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