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Both pilots of an A320 fell asleep in the cockpit for 28 minutes

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Re: Both pilots of an A320 fell asleep in the cockpit for 28 minutes

#71

Post by lupire »

adrianmonk wrote: post #49
bombcar wrote: post #2

First question - how do we tie this to Boeing? (A joke, of course) Second, interesting to note planes don’t have deadman switches.

> deadman switches Seems like they could address this by just changing procedures. If one pilot wants to take a nap, require a third crew member to come sit in the cockpit and make sure the other pilot doesn't doze off. When two pilots are awake, they can monitor each other, but if one is (intentionally) asleep, they can't do that, so have someone take over that function.

Procedures don't work well when people are incentivized to violate them. Confessing to sleeping on the job is a career threatening move.

Re: Both pilots of an A320 fell asleep in the cockpit for 28 minutes

#72

Post by [deleted] »

adamm255 wrote: post #11
firebaze wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Easy: * No wheels fell off ( https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/united-... ) * No doors departed the plane ( https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/06/business/ntsb-boeing-alaska-d... ) * No anti-ice ignited the engines ( https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers/faa-proposal-targets... ) * No gear failure ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39644341 ) * No unintended pitch-down ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wik…

Well rested now! Sounds like they may have needed extra time on the ground. Sounds like ATC and a nearby plane was trying to get hold of them while they were napping. Wonder how this would have been handled in another part of the world. Unresponsive aircraft for 28 mins…

[deleted]

Re: Both pilots of an A320 fell asleep in the cockpit for 28 minutes

#73

Post by svat »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #42

It’s actually harder to do nothing and just watch things, it’s its own special kind of fatigue. I wouldn’t be surprised if this doesn’t happen more often.

> I wouldn’t be surprised if this doesn’t happen more often.

From context I guess you meant either "I wouldn’t be surprised if this happens more often" or "I would be surprised if this doesn’t happen more often." (https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?cat=273 has many fun examples of this sort of thing)

Re: Both pilots of an A320 fell asleep in the cockpit for 28 minutes

#74

Post by randmeerkat »

kalleboo wrote: post #63

The Guardian article [0] mentions > One of the pilots had not rested adequately on the night before the flight, according to the report. > “The second-in-command had one-month-old twin babies. His wife took care of the babies and he assisted while at home,” the report said. More evidence of the importance of mandatory paternal leave. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/09/indonesia-open...

> More evidence of the importance of mandatory paternal leave.

With negative population growth being such a concern I’m really surprised that there’s not far reaching, comprehensive, pro-family policies being enacted. Society seems stuck in the “productivity” graveyard spiral.

Re: Both pilots of an A320 fell asleep in the cockpit for 28 minutes

#76

Post by no_op »

baron816 wrote: post #27

Can someone explain to me why we still need pilots? Could we at least have pilots serve as a backup to a fully autonomous system?

This is likely achievable in theory now, at least between major airports with ILS-equipped runways, but fully automated systems couldn't handle present traffic coordination procedures. You'd need a series of new standards to replace human-oriented air traffic control with a scheme in which ground computers could directly interface with aircraft flight management systems. Developing something like this and rolling it out on a global basis, in such a safety-critical application, would likely take two or three decades. Not clear it's really worth the trouble, since you'd want backup pilots for unexpected situations anyway.

What would probably make more sense is to just add a single-button auto-land feature, that sends an emergency destress call and configures and invokes existing automatic navigation, approach, and landing features to find the nearest appropriate airport and land. Given how rarely this would be used, there wouldn't be a need for the system to navigate complex traffic patterns, as ATC could just clear other aircraft out of the way. Something like this has recently become available for general aviation aircraft, but I haven't heard about anyone working on it for airliners yet.

Re: Both pilots of an A320 fell asleep in the cockpit for 28 minutes

#77

Post by hindsightbias »

zabzonk wrote: post #60

i can beat this. my dad was an RAF Vulcan captain and he and his entire crew fell asleep overflying Indonesia going from Australia to UK (they had being delivering to Australia a rocket component in the Vulcan's capacious bomb bay). the flight over Indonesia was completely illegal, but the crew figured that the Indonesian radars could not track the Vulcan (early stealth) and their fighters could not intercept it. any…

Late 50’s, Dad’s F-86 didn’t have a real autopilot but you could slave it to the vor-dme.

It dinged when you went over it and heading went to/from. And now you know why I’m here.

Re: Both pilots of an A320 fell asleep in the cockpit for 28 minutes

#78

Post by dave333 »

Have a countdown that has to be actively reset by the pilot before it gets to zero or it makes an audible alarm. Can allow it to be turned off manually for busy times or just make any pilot action reset the counter. Can research the optimal counter length but maybe a couple of minutes.

Re: Both pilots of an A320 fell asleep in the cockpit for 28 minutes

#79

Post by amluto »

lazyasciiart wrote: post #62
amluto wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s true, but there are plenty of other options. For example, a dead-man switch could: Send an alert via transponders that it has been activated. Maintain level flight but avoid terrain. (After a waiting period in which a pilot can deactivate this feature.) Or descend to a safe altitude if cabin pressure is lost. Activate a mode in which the plane could be remotely flown or directed to land itself. Alert flight cr…

The existing action is to maintain current settings. A flight in Australia flew across the continent that way, after (theory says) somehow depressurizing during takeoff so everyone passed out. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Australia_Beechcraft_King... IMO that story shows that unless you do the remote control option (which I see as unlikely) it doesn't matter what happens...what can anyone outside the plane do e…

The “descend to a safe altitude if cabin pressure is lost” option may have had a chance of saving those lives.

Re: Both pilots of an A320 fell asleep in the cockpit for 28 minutes

#80

Post by edward28 »

dave333 wrote: post #78

Have a countdown that has to be actively reset by the pilot before it gets to zero or it makes an audible alarm. Can allow it to be turned off manually for busy times or just make any pilot action reset the counter. Can research the optimal counter length but maybe a couple of minutes.

Deadman switch for pilots.
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