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Motorola's legal terms claim to strip owners of their right to sell their device

en-us.support.motorola.com

81–90 of 93 posts

Re: Motorola's legal terms claim to strip owners of their right to sell their device

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why do you do it? Because I enjoy the process of making software. >Do you see this as enshitification? No, I see this as needing to make a trade off where the result ends up with one party gaining something and consumers losing something. >Just need to pay the bills? No, money is not a motivating factor. >can't find a different job? I have no reason to switch job, but finding a different job wouldn't be an issue. >T…

Thanks for the response. Do you think these trade-offs are actually meaningful? I can see how they might be useful in the short term, but at least to me they seem clearly poor strategy long term. It is unclear to me what exactly is gained by such actions. It is mentioned that preventing users from destroying their devices is a motivation, but I think this is such a limited set of users and I'm not sure letting more t…

>Do you think these trade-offs are actually meaningful?

Yes, and it can be frustrating when your person want as a user may be different than what will be best for the most people. I do think there are a couple issues. The first is that reevaluating something, making a different tradeoff, and changing the product can be very expensive. Even if it's not be expensive alone, the opportunity cost may be higher and engineers could be working on something more impactful. The second issue is that the product will often target the needs of the majority of needs which means that the needs of power users may not be listened to very well. The solution to these issues are competition and extensibility. The work of making a version of the product for niche users can be done by a niche company and that can work out.

Re: Motorola's legal terms claim to strip owners of their right to sell their device

#82

Any devs here create these types of things? Or other systems that make it hard to repair devices? Why do you do it? Do you see this as enshitification? Just need to pay the bills? (can't find a different job?) Think "someone else will do it if I don't?" (and don't think they'll have to pay more for the other person or that the other person will be of lesser quality or people turning down the jobs/not applying puts pr…

I don't care for companies dictating what can and cannot be done with MY property. I may not agree with certain decisions the OEM made on how things operate, and I should be able to change them to fit my needs. If I physically destroy the device by whatever I do to it, then I don't expect warrantee service (but this should not be possible by changing the software alone, or it's a design flaw the OEM should be held ac…

I appreciate your passion, but I'm trying to understand the other side. Given your passion I hope you do too. Because I think we need to understand the other side if we want to argue our side. So let's wait for some responses and make sure we don't attack anyone that responds or discourage them. We need to understand why people make certain decisions if we're going to change things, not force people into our positions, especially by means of shame.

Re: Motorola's legal terms claim to strip owners of their right to sell their device

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the response. Do you think these trade-offs are actually meaningful? I can see how they might be useful in the short term, but at least to me they seem clearly poor strategy long term. It is unclear to me what exactly is gained by such actions. It is mentioned that preventing users from destroying their devices is a motivation, but I think this is such a limited set of users and I'm not sure letting more t…

>Do you think these trade-offs are actually meaningful? Yes, and it can be frustrating when your person want as a user may be different than what will be best for the most people. I do think there are a couple issues. The first is that reevaluating something, making a different tradeoff, and changing the product can be very expensive. Even if it's not be expensive alone, the opportunity cost may be higher and enginee…

I think these are reasonable points. But are they necessary?

I'm a researcher, so not your typical programmer. But I'm wondering if there are some aspects that might overlap. I do program a bit differently from my colleagues.

I know I'm going to change my code a lot and have to try a lot of different things so when I go into writing I prioritize flexibility. I know whichever direction I'm starting in is wrong and I'm gonna learn a lot on the way. It's a bit slower to start but ends up faster in the long run and ends up letting me parallelize a lot more (because I can get to a state where I submit jobs to run over different parameters and can rely on it running for days). It did definitely take a bit to get into this style, but I feel much better about my code now.

Do you think these lessons I learned are relatable to the area you work in? To me the key difference is between short term and long term goals. Short term I am very hacky but it's just that that isn't sustainable so I imagine this is analogous to actual products. But it seems that it is addressing a similar problem of flexibility and changing directions.

I also have the habit of documenting while I code because I forget what I did in a few weeks (side benefit, others can onboard very easily). And whenever I get handed code I find myself being more productive rewriting routines rather than using what was handed to me that has zero documentation and is typically made for a very specific use case. Do you have a different experience? Because I've been working in a group building a product and this has been my life for the last 6 months...

I guess what I'm after is I have a predisposition to think more openness is more beneficial in the long run but closed is better in the short run.

I also think the not listening to power users plays into this. I'm reminded of this post[0] where other users are mentioning similar experiences. I can attest that in my experience most bugs I've seen are system independent but have experienced being quickly dismissed with "unsupported OS" and closed. Including just using a different flavor of the supported distro. (or to read the docs despite referencing the docs in my issue)

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28978086

Edit: Keep posting and we'll get you to your "goal" lol

Re: Motorola's legal terms claim to strip owners of their right to sell their device

#84
post #74
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Warranties are just normal contracts. If both parties agree to modify a contract, they are pretty much always allowed to do so. In this case, Motorola is offering a second contract, which modifies an earlier agreement (the warranty) in exchange for the key to unlocking one's phone. You're completely glossing over the part where an illegal contract is invalid whether both parties agree to it or not. If I write up a c…

Unless you live in Germany: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/dec/04/germany.lukeha...

> In January 2004, Meiwes was convicted of manslaughter and sentenced to eight years and six months in prison. In a retrial in May 2006, he was convicted of murder and sentenced to life imprisonment.

Nope, definitely illegal in Germany too. Trying to abuse assisted professional suicide laws generally doesn’t end well.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armin_Meiwes

Re: Motorola's legal terms claim to strip owners of their right to sell their device

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Warranties in the US are not normal contracts. They are heavily regulated by the Federal Trade Commission, including those implicit in offering a product for sale, which cannot be unilaterally terminated post facto by a manufacturer: https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/resources/businesspers...

Normally I would agree. But there are also very heavy regulations around selling telecoms devices with hard requirements for things like interacting with emergency services, regs that do not apply to general electronics. Similar also applies to medical devices. Its the product in its entirety that gets certified as suitable for sale and warrentied against, for example, repeatedly dialing 911 in a fault condition and…

Oh, the question at hand will be for a court to decide if it ever matters, which it doesn't to me.

Re: Motorola's legal terms claim to strip owners of their right to sell their device

#86
post #2

> And now a word from our lawyers. Finally, in order to unlock your device, you need to agree to important legal terms[1], which can be found on the next page. Agreeing creates a binding legal agreement, so be sure to read them carefully. From linked terms: > Devices that have been unlocked are for your personal use only. Once you unlock the device, you can only use it for our personal use, and may not sell or otherw…

It kind of makes sense. If you unlock it, install software and then try to sell it, it is a Motorola branded device, but it no longer functions as Motorola designed or intended. I can see where the lawyers are trying to prevent the consequences of actions by the end-user from falling back on them.

Seems like an area of the law that's a bit unclear.

Re: Motorola's legal terms claim to strip owners of their right to sell their device

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Do you think these trade-offs are actually meaningful? Yes, and it can be frustrating when your person want as a user may be different than what will be best for the most people. I do think there are a couple issues. The first is that reevaluating something, making a different tradeoff, and changing the product can be very expensive. Even if it's not be expensive alone, the opportunity cost may be higher and enginee…

I think these are reasonable points. But are they necessary? I'm a researcher, so not your typical programmer. But I'm wondering if there are some aspects that might overlap. I do program a bit differently from my colleagues. I know I'm going to change my code a lot and have to try a lot of different things so when I go into writing I prioritize flexibility. I know whichever direction I'm starting in is wrong and I'm…

To your first point flexibility is not free. You have to choose when to be flexible and when to make assumptions to make things simple. Flexibility can only reduce the cost of making changes, but not eliminate it entitely.

>whenever I get handed code I find myself being more productive rewriting routines rather than using what was handed to me that has zero documentation and is typically made for a very specific use case.

Their is a cost to rewriting code. Code can have all sorts of information and knowledge for handling things correctly baked into which makes rewriting hard to do at scale without having a strong understanding of the problem. I personally don't think code level documentation really matters that much in the grand scheme of things. The version history, being able to see why code is the way it is, is orders of magnitude more important and is where the real savings come from.

>I also think the not listening to power users plays into this.

There is a difference between not listening to power users and what I was saying about not designing software for power users when the goal is to sell to the mass market. Yes, power users likely know the biggest pain points and have insight on how to make the product better. Even if they are right in finding something that makes the product better for them, it is possible that such a change would make the product worse for the millions of normal users.

Re: Motorola's legal terms claim to strip owners of their right to sell their device

#88
post #2

> And now a word from our lawyers. Finally, in order to unlock your device, you need to agree to important legal terms[1], which can be found on the next page. Agreeing creates a binding legal agreement, so be sure to read them carefully. From linked terms: > Devices that have been unlocked are for your personal use only. Once you unlock the device, you can only use it for our personal use, and may not sell or otherw…

Unfair contract terms are illegal and carry a fine of up to $50,000,000 in Australia. [1] [1] https://www.accc.gov.au/media-release/businesses-urged-to-re...

Inquisitive question: is there such a thing as a unfair contract? There's this saying 'the price is always right'. Likewise, isn't the contract always fair?

Re: Motorola's legal terms claim to strip owners of their right to sell their device

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think these are reasonable points. But are they necessary? I'm a researcher, so not your typical programmer. But I'm wondering if there are some aspects that might overlap. I do program a bit differently from my colleagues. I know I'm going to change my code a lot and have to try a lot of different things so when I go into writing I prioritize flexibility. I know whichever direction I'm starting in is wrong and I'm…

To your first point flexibility is not free. You have to choose when to be flexible and when to make assumptions to make things simple. Flexibility can only reduce the cost of making changes, but not eliminate it entitely. >whenever I get handed code I find myself being more productive rewriting routines rather than using what was handed to me that has zero documentation and is typically made for a very specific use…

Sure, I don't think there is a free lunch.

But if this is the cost of rewriting isn't that the argument for having documentation? I mean I'm not running into well written code and I'm just told to add my thing to it. But to do that I need to interact with... well... a house of cards. Because the person before me wrote fast, not well. I do hear a lot of people say that they write their code so well it doesn't need documentation but I've only run into code that is clear pretty rarely. Though every time that happens, they also have documentation available.

Thanks for the clarification with power users. As one, I have no issues with this response. I know we always want more but I get the tradeoff for usability. Only thing I'd say is that, depending on what's being programmed, exposing API can often be all I need and typically doesn't do anything for the average user. But that's often not reasonable so I totally get this one.

Re: Motorola's legal terms claim to strip owners of their right to sell their device

#90
post #2

> And now a word from our lawyers. Finally, in order to unlock your device, you need to agree to important legal terms[1], which can be found on the next page. Agreeing creates a binding legal agreement, so be sure to read them carefully. From linked terms: > Devices that have been unlocked are for your personal use only. Once you unlock the device, you can only use it for our personal use, and may not sell or otherw…

It kind of makes sense. If you unlock it, install software and then try to sell it, it is a Motorola branded device, but it no longer functions as Motorola designed or intended. I can see where the lawyers are trying to prevent the consequences of actions by the end-user from falling back on them. Seems like an area of the law that's a bit unclear.

Sure, if you sell a phone with unofficial modifications, without disclosing that it's been been modified, I could see that being a problem. But not a blanket ban.
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