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Responding to Beggars

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Re: Responding to Beggars

#111

Post by mikeash »

I have seen enough professional beggars who live well that I pretty much just assume that they're just about all like that. It seems that if you're good at it, you can make quite a bit of money. And this is hardly new: there's even a Sherlock Holmes story that revolves around a man who gives up his profession to become a beggar because the money is better.

If you feel guilty (and why wouldn't you? it's only natural), give money to charitable organizations which help the homeless. They know how to put the money to better use.

Re: Responding to Beggars

#112

Post by LargeWu »

corry wrote: post #94
jakobe wrote: post #83

When someone asks me for money, I just give them money. I dont care what they do with it. I think people complaining about being deceived are just looking for excuses for being greedy. The end result is the same, no matter if the beggar is honest or not: i'm more happy because I feel generous, the beggar's more happy because he got money. The first time I relised that the story I got told was a lie I was upset, but I…

I guess some people's problem is that we "care what [the beggars] do with it" when we give money. i.e. I don't want to give someone money that they'll use to further destroy their life with drugs/alcohol/whatever. I don't want to be complicit in that action. If that's too 'morally' or 'judgemental' for some people, so be it. Now, I'm more than happy to buy them some food, transportation, etc. Or even better, spend so…

Well, when there is a high probability they will use the money to buy drugs - substance abuse is one of the primary reasons for homelessness in the US - then it does in fact matter what they do with it. Giving money to beggars is virtually synonymous with supporting the corner dealer in many cases.

Re: Responding to Beggars

#113

Post by Jun8 »

derekuser wrote: post #30
Jun8 wrote: post #27

I think that in certain situations the moral question of doing or not performing an act is either a weak function of the entities we interact or is not a function of them at all. I think this is one of those cases: I would give a small amount of money (e.g. a quarter) to anyone who has to ask for it for whatever reason. I find Stallman's attitude to be condescending to extreme, i.e. "you lied to me", how can you judg…

How can you judge them to be needy?

That was my whole point: I don't.

Re: Responding to Beggars

#114

Post by spindritf »

hej wrote: post #58
Muzza wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am 100% confident that deporting all foreign beggars in Sweden will solve the problem of foreign beggars in Sweden. I don't really care if this doesn't get to the "bottom of the problem" or whatever. I (or the Swedish people in general) simply cannot be held responsible for the suffering of the entire fucking world. Your links don't make any sense. The DDR used slave labor? Ingvar Kamprad uses various tax avoidance…

You (and I) are responsible if you are enjoying your privileges while – through no fault of their own - others suffer. Sweden and the west got rich through luck and exploitation. You are privileged. You are lucky. Recognize that and act on it.

West did not get rich through luck and exploitation. Particularly Europe didn't. If you look at the map, it's just some tiny backwater at the end of the world with little natural resources. Yes, there was plenty of exploitation but that's hardly unique to the western culture. And European peasants were the ones exploited for the most part.

West has gotten rich because of its culture which allowed for development of science and technology (or at least hindered it the least), private property and enterprise, stable governments, honored contracts, and -- perhaps the cause of all those freedoms -- no single hegemon for much of its history and so a ruthless competition between the states on all field.

You're confusing cause with effect. It's not exploitation that made Europeans do much better than the rest of the world, they were already doing much better which allowed them to conquer the world.

Re: Responding to Beggars

#115

Post by twelvechairs »

v0cab wrote: post #99
twelvechairs wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Downvoting because its ridiculous to compare the situation in Sweden with that of Thailand (the difference is immense), because it engages in leftist bashing (I'm sure there must be very few 'leftists' if any who really say "lets build new apartments for foreign criminals whilst Swedes get nothing", although this is exactly what you imply they say), and because you claim to answer a complex and nuanced issue with a s…

His comment was relevant to the discussion, and was a relevant comment reply (talking about organised gangs using begging to further their goals). I'm guessing you just want to shut out views that are at all critical of immigration, or even just seem to be. You want to shut down that discussion entirely. I'd downvote you, but that button doesn't appear for me.

Sorry, but I feel like you are putting words into my mouth here. I downvoted for the specific reasons mentioned, none of which were about my views on immigration (which you might be surprised to know are not one-sided at all). I'd also be happy to have a discussion about immigration, but at most it is a side issue in this thread and the above post.

I don't want to get into an argument here, but its hard not to refute the views you seem to be imposing on me.

Re: Responding to Beggars

#116

Post by v0cab »

twelvechairs wrote: post #115
v0cab wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His comment was relevant to the discussion, and was a relevant comment reply (talking about organised gangs using begging to further their goals). I'm guessing you just want to shut out views that are at all critical of immigration, or even just seem to be. You want to shut down that discussion entirely. I'd downvote you, but that button doesn't appear for me.

Sorry, but I feel like you are putting words into my mouth here. I downvoted for the specific reasons mentioned, none of which were about my views on immigration (which you might be surprised to know are not one-sided at all). I'd also be happy to have a discussion about immigration, but at most it is a side issue in this thread and the above post. I don't want to get into an argument here, but its hard not to refute…

I apologise if I have misrepresented you. You are right, I do not know what your views are.

Re: Responding to Beggars

#117

Post by gioele »

Muzza wrote: post #71
gioele wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you a problem with Bulgarian people or Bulgarian criminals? If you have a problem with Bulgarian people in general, then, well, that is called xenophobia or more simply racism. If you have a problem with Bulgarian criminals, then complain to your police force. How come you able to spot such criminals so easily while they cannot? Did you make precise and detailed reports to the police about cases you witnessed, e…

> Have you a problem with Bulgarian people or Bulgarian criminals? > If you have a problem with Bulgarian people in general, then, well, that is called xenophobia or more simply racism. Presumably you are Bulgarian and I have offended you by not being nice to those compatriots of you who are begging on my streets. I am actually kind of sad for that, because I'm sure you and I could in fact get along quite beautifully…

> Presumably you are Bulgarian and I have offended you by not being nice to those compatriots of you who are begging on my streets.

No, I am not a Bulgarian or a Romanian. But yes, I am offended by people who use nationalities to denote groups of criminals. I am not that old, yet I have heard "Albanian", "Italian", "Spanish", "Polish", "Romanian", "Turkish", "Portuguese", "African", "Brazilian", "Senegalese", "Nigerian", "Egyptian", "Moroccan", "Chinese", "Arab" and many other demonyms used as an insult and to identify the latest and biggest threat to EU security and welfare systems. I find it difficult to think that all the Albanians, Italians, Spanish, Polish, etc., are all criminals. I am pretty sure that each country has its own fair share of criminals and that many of these flew to other countries in order to exploit their there-unknown cons, but I doubt that this warrants anyone the possibility to call out a whole nation as a problematic issue.

> when I go out, I don't wish to be accosted by beggars. This is human nature.

Isn't compassion part of human nature as well?

> My bloody point was that vagrancy SHOULD be a crime. It ISN'T at present.

It is in many EU countries. Many people in those countries complain just like you do.

An old saying of my country says «Never say "I will never drink from that spring"». You never know what may happen. There are many homeless people on the streets right now that used to be plain middle-class workers only 5 years ago. [1] Also, vagrancy, and homelessness in general, are on the rise. [2] An hungry person will not care much about anti-vagrancy laws. It will came to you and ask for help.

> (Also, the police are corrupt and willing to overlook crime when it suits them.)

This is your problem, not foreigners' problems. Your police is subject to bribery from gangs from other countries, what is the most effective action? Fix your police system or kick out gang X waiting for gang Y to start bribing the police?

[1] http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/29/middle-class-family... [2] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-17303892

Re: Responding to Beggars

#118

Post by [deleted] »

wilfra wrote: post #29

In Thailand this situation is quite terrible. The Mafia collects people with missing limbs and other disfigurations, basically the people who will elicit the greatest sympathy, and forces them to sit on the same corners begging day after day, month after month and year after year - and turn all of the money they collect over to them. If they steal any, they die. In return they are provided with the bare minimum subsi…

[deleted]

Re: Responding to Beggars

#119

Post by neilk »

wilfra wrote: post #29

In Thailand this situation is quite terrible. The Mafia collects people with missing limbs and other disfigurations, basically the people who will elicit the greatest sympathy, and forces them to sit on the same corners begging day after day, month after month and year after year - and turn all of the money they collect over to them. If they steal any, they die. In return they are provided with the bare minimum subsi…

It's similar in India, although Indians from the more respectable classes find it just as shocking as a westerner would, and find it hard to believe this happens in their country.

Re: Responding to Beggars

#120

Post by georgieporgie »

taligent wrote: post #5
georgieporgie wrote: post #3

In SF, I witnessed the classic: guy offers sandwich to 'hungry' homeless guy. Homeless guy responds, "what kind is it?" Apparently, beggars can be choosers.

Did you ever think he might have had a life threatening allergy to certain foods ? It's pretty common.

Did you ever think that I was there and might have taken note of such a thing? There's a difference between "I don't eat meat" and "I don't like corned beef." Do you ever give people the benefit of the doubt, or do you always exploit omissions in order to paint the other in a negative light?
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