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Responding to Beggars

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Re: Responding to Beggars

#21

Post by awakeasleep »

mehulkar wrote: post #11

This has been a huge problem for me. I recently moved to San Francisco after many years of living in the Midwest. I was born and lived the first 10 years of my life in Delhi where poverty was no big deal. It was accepted and not questioned. After living in the States and doing all the chores that someone else would normally do for me in India (dishes, laundry, etc.), it became difficult for me to see people as anythi…

At least you're being honest with yourself. I still struggle with how to respond to these situations, and I'm almost 30.

That said, I like Stallman's response. Gather more information, and act on your values. It's more human, imo.

Re: Responding to Beggars

#22

Post by coryl »

mehulkar wrote: post #11

This has been a huge problem for me. I recently moved to San Francisco after many years of living in the Midwest. I was born and lived the first 10 years of my life in Delhi where poverty was no big deal. It was accepted and not questioned. After living in the States and doing all the chores that someone else would normally do for me in India (dishes, laundry, etc.), it became difficult for me to see people as anythi…

There are ways to help the homeless without giving out money. For example, volunteering at a soup kitchen, shelter, etc.

Re: Responding to Beggars

#23

Post by sage_joch »

andywood wrote: post #16

I've always made this decision based strictly on whether I am feeling generous enough in the moment to give money to a stranger who asked for it. I personally find bothering oneself about what they are going to do with it to be extremely condescending, and I sometimes suspect it might be a cop-out for simply wanting to hold on to your money. Not that there's anything inherently wrong with wanting to hold on to your o…

From the article it's pretty clear that Stallman just didn't like the feeling of being deceived. I don't think condescension has anything to do with it. As an aside: there were two instances in the last year in which I gave a stranger in need of help $20. I analyzed the interactions in the aftermath, and I'm convinced that the first person really did need help and the second person scammed me (I can't say for sure, but when adding up all the little details, things start to ring true or false). When I realized that I had been scammed, I felt pretty raw about it. It wasn't about the money, but the fact that someone would prey on my willingness to help like that.

Re: Responding to Beggars

#24

Post by ido »

robocat wrote: post #20
abhaga wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. In India and probably in many other countries, a lot of beggars operate under some gangs and most of their income goes to them. Especially true for beggars one sees at the traffic signals. So if you pay them, it is added incentive for the gangs to put more people out on the street. My take on this is that everyone has a different way of being most effective in helping others. To really improve their situation,…

> So if you pay them, it is added incentive for the gangs to put more people out on the street. I sometimes think that is just a handy excuse. I actually enjoy seeing tourists get taken advantage of, and actively encourage it with my own behaviour. I often admire go-getting capitalist tourist scams or annoying vendors - at times even illegal or immoral behaviour (people take risks because they need to, not usually ou…

    I actually enjoy seeing tourists get taken advantage 
    of, and actively encourage it with my own behaviour.
Why?

Re: Responding to Beggars

#25

Post by ricardobeat »

The situation is not much different here in Brazil. It's almost impossible to tell when a beggar is telling the truth or not - they have perfected their story-telling out of necessity.

Once I was walking up to a friend's apartment. Just a few meters from his door, a guy with a desperate face approached and asked me to borrow some money for gas/something, so that he could get to his wife who was in the hospital (red flag). I refused, and then he proceeded to tell me the exact address he was going to, handed me his license and car keys to check. I felt ashamed for being such a cold person, and gave him ten bucks. Just as he was turning around the corner, my friend who was leaving his apt saw him and said -"did you give that guy money? He is always around" :(

Never gave out money since. I try to make up for it by being very straight about taxes and civilization in general.

Re: Responding to Beggars

#26

Post by Jach »

kgrin wrote: post #14
kkwok wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the video. Interesting round to watch--makes me miss my debate days. Which direction did it shift your views?

In the direction of giving - either money, or if time allows, something like what Stallman is doing/advocating. The main thing that shifted my views was the notion that even if the money is "wasted" (or might be more effective dollar-for-dollar elsewhere), there's a lot to be said for the human connection - and that even if the recipient is operating under false pretenses (which does happen sometimes), that human con…

I definitely fall on the side of the fence that actually-effective charity is superior than any "human connection" or other warm-fuzzy feeling I personally might get, though I do enjoy my warm-fuzzies every so often. I started treating them separately at some point (most likely influenced by http://lesswrong.com/lw/6z/purchase_fuzzies_and_utilons_sepa... ) and that seemed pretty helpful in a couple ways.

One trick I'm trying this year is that whenever I'm asked for cash or see a bum asking for cash and don't give any (typically because I don't want to or because I want to give less than $20 and I only have a card (and I don't want to give any time)), the next time I'm at a computer I increment a total on my home system by some small delta. It represents the total I intend to donate all at once near the end of the year to where I think has the most expected utility.

Re: Responding to Beggars

#27

Post by Jun8 »

I think that in certain situations the moral question of doing or not performing an act is either a weak function of the entities we interact or is not a function of them at all. I think this is one of those cases: I would give a small amount of money (e.g. a quarter) to anyone who has to ask for it for whatever reason. I find Stallman's attitude to be condescending to extreme, i.e. "you lied to me", how can you judge that person?

A similar ethical question: Should we eat animals? Some people object to this citing the misery, pain, etc. that the animals have to endure. But suppose we create a certain pig/chicken/sheep clone that is incapable of thinking (or, as in http://www.amazon.com/The-Pig-That-Wants-Eaten/dp/0452287448, actually wants to be eaten): Would your attitude on this matter change? I think it should not.

The way I treat entities with less power than me (homeless people, animals) wholly depends on me and not inputs from them.

Re: Responding to Beggars

#28

Post by twfarland »

I never give money to beggars after having seen how they operate in Berlin. The standard ones are extremely pushy, and in areas like Ku'damm, there are organised gangs of women who bring their children with them. I've seen them converge and hand over money to a central man at the same spot day after day. He doesn't look poor.

Re: Responding to Beggars

#29

Post by wilfra »

In Thailand this situation is quite terrible. The Mafia collects people with missing limbs and other disfigurations, basically the people who will elicit the greatest sympathy, and forces them to sit on the same corners begging day after day, month after month and year after year - and turn all of the money they collect over to them. If they steal any, they die. In return they are provided with the bare minimum subsistence living one could imagine.

This situation is so bad that the country had to pass a law giving the death penalty to anybody dismembering children for the purposes of turning them into beggars - because people were doing that on a large scale.

Re: Responding to Beggars

#30

Post by derekuser »

Jun8 wrote: post #27

I think that in certain situations the moral question of doing or not performing an act is either a weak function of the entities we interact or is not a function of them at all. I think this is one of those cases: I would give a small amount of money (e.g. a quarter) to anyone who has to ask for it for whatever reason. I find Stallman's attitude to be condescending to extreme, i.e. "you lied to me", how can you judg…

How can you judge them to be needy?
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