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It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

blogs.computerworld.com

211–220 of 234 posts

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#211
post #25

I wonder how many people throwing opinions around this were "of age" in the early-to-mid 90s and thus remember what an unstoppable behemoth Microsoft was. This was a time when they had 95%+ of the desktop OS share and you basically couldn't run a home computer with Windows. This was the early days of Linux (IIRC in ~1994 I downloaded SLS running Linux 0.99.x onto ~30 floppy drives over a 2400 baud modem!). Macs were…

Microsoft has definitely earned their hatred in both the consumer and development communities. They rode their monopoly as far as they could, and they are going to pay for it very dearly. Literally noone I have met in the past 10 years is developing Windows software anymore. Sure, some people use .Net to develop web applications, but it sure seems that nobody develops Windows-only software. So Microsoft, has already…

> Microsoft has definitely earned their hatred in both the consumer and development communities.

Mostly from clueless people. Link baiters. And fools who get off on blaming and attacking others (it's a group/mob thing).

The other 5%-10% is valid criticism.

> Literally noone I have met in the past 10 years is developing Windows software anymore.

You're living in your own cornered off world.

Microsoft has 90% of the desktop market, rave reviews of their new mobile platform, 60 billion in the bank, absolutely fantastic developer tools that are not matched by anything else, full integration in the stack.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#212
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On what grounds is Firefox not allowed in the App Store? Or does the restriction on JIT simply make performance unappealing?

No downloadable executable content. You can have an alternative programming language interpreter in your program (now), but it can only run scripts that are already in the application bundle. It's a reasonable restriction from a user's point of view—you don't want to allow arbitrary code execution that may expose vulnerabilities in badly coded applications. It sucks from a developer's point of view.

> You can have an alternative programming language interpreter in your program (now), but it can only run scripts that are already in the application bundle.

If what you say is true, how come there are other web browsers in the App Store?

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#213
I think a big part of the history which people are forgetting here is that there were certain actions which Microsoft engaged in that strengthened the determination of "monopolistic" behavior. Namely, the restraints and difficulty they created for other operating systems in the market. [1][2]

This specific instance ignores that particular history, and focuses just on the "browser included, supported, and otherwise enabled with the most features" part of the argument, which by its self does not seem to stand on its own merits. And, in fact, there really is -no- difference here between Apple and Microsoft - both have created a specific version of their software for a specific hardware platform, and both have placed, or are placing restrictions on what software can run on those platforms with the stated goal of controlling the end-customer experience.

There is not yet any evidence of undue influence on the part of Microsoft to prevent, or otherwise make too costly for, other operating systems, with other browsers, to be installed on ARM-based hardware sold in the market place. In fact, at this point, it seems to be exactly the opposite - that all existing ARM-based tablet style devices currently for sale in the market contain non-Microsoft operating systems, and very few ARM-based phone style devices contain a Microsoft operating system. One would do well to remember that it was the sum of all actions which led to the anti-trust case, not just preventing IE from being uninstalled effectively, or preventing Netscape from being installed at the same level and with the same capabilities as IE.

In this case, there is no evidence that MS is taking other actions to prevent people from selling arm-based devices with other operating systems. Given that we accept that it is legal for other entities to restrict what 3rd party software may be installed on their devices so long as they don't apply undue influence on the market outside of their product, I don't see why the reasoning would be so different here.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft "... Microsoft's conduct in forming restrictive licensing agreements with original equipment manufacturer (OEMs), and Microsoft's intent in its course of conduct. "

[2] http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/Pre_96/July94/94387.txt.html

"Exclusionary Per Processor Licenses--Microsoft makes its MS-DOS and Windows technology available on a "per processor" basis, which requires PC manufacturers to pay a fee to Microsoft for each computer shipped, whether or not the computer contains Microsoft operating system software. The complaint alleges that this arrangement gives Microsoft an unfair advantage by causing a manufacturer selling a non-Microsoft operating system to pay at least two royalties--one to Microsoft and one to its competitor-- thereby making a non-Microsoft unit more expensive. "Microsoft has used its monopoly power, in effect, to levy a "tax" on PC manufacturers who would otherwise like to offer an alternative system," said Bingaman. "As a result, the ability of rival operating systems to compete has been impeded, innovation has been slowed and consumer choices have been limited.""

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#214
This is such a tired argument. Microsoft's market share on browsers, desktops, etc. has been headed straight south for years, and yet Mozilla continues to beat the drum about choice and innovation and such? Hey, 1998 called, they'd like their complaints back.

Mozilla isn't going after Apple because they can't -- they don't have a hammer of government oversight to pound away to get someone else to do things on their behalf. Mozilla is going after Microsoft mostly because they can get away with it.

These complaints were relevant years ago, but much like Microsoft itself, they're reflective of an old mindset that's fading away.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft has definitely earned their hatred in both the consumer and development communities. They rode their monopoly as far as they could, and they are going to pay for it very dearly. Literally noone I have met in the past 10 years is developing Windows software anymore. Sure, some people use .Net to develop web applications, but it sure seems that nobody develops Windows-only software. So Microsoft, has already…

> Microsoft has definitely earned their hatred in both the consumer and development communities. Mostly from clueless people. Link baiters. And fools who get off on blaming and attacking others (it's a group/mob thing). The other 5%-10% is valid criticism. > Literally noone I have met in the past 10 years is developing Windows software anymore. You're living in your own cornered off world. Microsoft has 90% of the de…

> absolutely fantastic developer tools that are not matched by anything else

I bought Windows 2000 and MSVC 2003 with the first money I ever made through terrible teenager webdev. I was a huge VS fan until I first touched an iBook G4, and even now, I really wish I found a reason to get a Lumia 800. Windows 7 is georgous for consumers.

Still, after five years on Apple and Unix, I find it absolutely impossible to go back to Windows development. And it's definitely a group thing, none of my friends really knows how to work on Windows either. They appreciate what Microsoft is doing lately, but they shrug and stay in their corner of the computing universe.

I think you underestimate the brain drain (= SANE people) out of the Microsoft camp, especially during the Vista years.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#216
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What monopoly do they have? Do they not have what is essentially a monopoly on the tablet space? I'm not up to date on Android tablet market share, but it seems to me that there isn't so much a market for tablets as there is one for iPads. Everything else is pretty much nonexistent. I might be wrong about that, I guess.

http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2012/05/03/amazons-tablet-market... Apple has 68% of the market. It's in a very powerful position, but it isn't a monopoly.

Using percentages to decide monopoly status isn't relevant. There are far greater factors involved, as the DOJ/MS trial established precedent in that respect.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#217
post #25

I wonder how many people throwing opinions around this were "of age" in the early-to-mid 90s and thus remember what an unstoppable behemoth Microsoft was. This was a time when they had 95%+ of the desktop OS share and you basically couldn't run a home computer with Windows. This was the early days of Linux (IIRC in ~1994 I downloaded SLS running Linux 0.99.x onto ~30 floppy drives over a 2400 baud modem!). Macs were…

> I certainly don't see an issue (yet) with Apple blocking alternative browsers. Don't like it? Buy an Android. Or a Windows Phone 7. Or a Blackberry

You are clearly looking at phones. The tablet market is actually pretty unbalanced right now. If Windows 8 fails to shake it up AND tablets manage to keep their momentum, it could actually get ugly, especially with Apple eyeing the education market.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#218
post #25

I wonder how many people throwing opinions around this were "of age" in the early-to-mid 90s and thus remember what an unstoppable behemoth Microsoft was. This was a time when they had 95%+ of the desktop OS share and you basically couldn't run a home computer with Windows. This was the early days of Linux (IIRC in ~1994 I downloaded SLS running Linux 0.99.x onto ~30 floppy drives over a 2400 baud modem!). Macs were…

I was around during the time period you're talking about and in my personal experience, Microsoft had plenty of help in killing Netscape from Netscape itself. I switched to MSIE3 not because of bundling or FUD but because it was a much better browser. Microsoft has been a bad actor at times when it comes to business practices, but I think a lot of people overestimate how much that helped them and underestimate how mu…

Yes, Netscape acted stupidly.

Nevertheless, it is rare if ever that a company retained a significant market share for a product once Microsoft decided to kill it by forcibly bundling the same functionality with their 95% monopoly product, Windows.

Microsoft acted stupidly too. Mr. G didn't understand the internet until years after everyone else. MSIE was a piece of junk. The decision to integrate it deeply into the operating system was a security disaster of epic proportions.

The difference between Microsoft and their competitors was that they had unlimited money in the bank and could ship whatever they wanted on 95% of new machines whenever they wanted. Consequently, Microsoft could screw up just as often or even more often than other companies. Most new products only get one chance in the market, but Microsoft products always got a second chance, or a third chance, or however many chances it takes for the competition to give up.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#219
post #200
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2012/05/03/amazons-tablet-market... Apple has 68% of the market. It's in a very powerful position, but it isn't a monopoly.

That's higher than Google's share of the US search market, according to comScore. http://www.marketwatch.com/story/googles-web-search-market-s...

What does tablet market share have to do with search market share?

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#220
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like a function of the people you've met tbh. Looking at job postings around these parts, the most widespread platform remains .NET. Whilst the non-existent adoption amongst startups doesn't necessarily bode well for MSFT's future, there is still a huge amount of .NET development going on worldwide.

Sure many enterprises use .NET, just like many enterprises use Java and COBOL running on zSeries mainframes. What fraction of that .NET jobs would you call "interesting" of "cutting edge"? .NET developers aren't in the endangered species list. Not more than COBOL developers who know what CICS means.

I've been to & heard of plenty of startups doing cutting edge things and using .NET. Maybe a geographical thing?
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