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Men In Tech

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Re: Men In Tech

#81
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When you ask men the same question [...] the answer is just about nothing. From my personal experience, men are much more vulnerable than women. A lot of my friends got assaulted/beaten up (me included) (some multiple times), and it's always been in public , either in clubs or even in broad daylight on a busy street ! As you stated above, women can protect themselves in very simple ways: stay with other people, and…

> men are much more vulnerable than women. ... For men, it's almost impossible to protect ourselves What?

Sorry, I'm not a native speaker, only now I realize how this sounds...

What I meant to say is, men can do almost nothing to prevent violence against them (or at least reduce the probability of it happening), since violence against men is (in my experience) often very random, and happens even in public places with a lot of other people involved.

In contrast, women are almost never a target of physical violence, and they can often avoid being a target of sexual violence using relatively simple measures, e.g. staying with friends and not getting drunk/drugged.

On the other hand, men have better ways of dealing with violence once it happens (fight back), but it doesn't help if things escalate and you get beaten to death (in Slovenia, a man was once beaten to death by club security guards!!).

Re: Men In Tech

#82
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You'd be surprised the shit women deal with. I'm not sure, but I think you're being too general. I'd rather state this: You'd be surprised by the shit *attractive* women have to deal with. And I 'm pretty sure that attractive men have to deal with the same kind of "shit". They just react to it differently. Edit: I expected the downvotes, but please reply, do you disagree with the stated facts (i.e. does you experie…

Attractive men DON'T have to deal with the same kind of shit, in general, because they are not a minority. They are not in a minority with social precedents to keep them down, which is what this article is all about. Institutionalized sexualization of women through teasing and joking is pretty common. This piece is trying to get you to where you try to understand what it's like. Most of us have wondered if our bulge…

Reading your reply, I had an idea...

Maybe women perceive men as being sexually discriminating because they only receive sexual comments from men. When I try to think about it, I (as a man) also receive much more sexual comments from men. Maybe it is simply that men are much more open talking about sex, and when we do it with everybody, men and women alike, but when women hear it, they think it has something to do with them being women...

I don't know if I'm correct, generally, but in my social circles, we joke about sexual stuff a lot. (With friends, of course, not at workplace.)

Re: Men In Tech

#83
I like this as an exercise in empathy.

It's important to consider how we treat the "odd ones out" in any group. Maybe we're on snowboarding holiday with friends who are all mad keen boarders, except for one who's never seen snow before, we'd probably adjust our behaviour and hang out on the baby slopes a bit and help out our friend. Or maybe we're organising a work party, and it would normally be a slightly boozy affair in a bar, but we know someone doesn't drink because they're pregnant/alcoholic/religious/don't like it/training for a marathon, so we might do something a bit different, like take everyone for a bbq on the beach. Maybe we own a cafe, and there's a step out the front, we might get a ramp ready, so that if someone in a wheelchair wants to visit they can get in okay.

For whatever reason, at the moment, being a female in tech means you're an "odd one out". The lack of women in tech is not the men in tech's fault, (the men in tech are mostly pretty lovely, certainly I like working with them). The lack of women is no-one's fault, the reasons run deep and are complicated. It's also not a terrible experience being a women in tech, it's a good job. I guess the worse you can say is that it's hard to be different to everyone around you. And let's face it women haven't got the monopoly on that, we all know what that feels like. It's not really about gender, I'm sure there's many men who feel excluded by the whole "brogrammer" thing too.

Sometimes the discourse around the whole "women in tech" thing makes me scared, I feel like it's stirring people to feel accused or hurt or angry or confused, and causing them to divide. It shouldn't really be about women, it doesn't even make sense, we're half of humanity for goodness sake, 3.4 x 10^9 very separate people, why consider us to be such a coherent group? It should be about trying to understand those around us as individuals, who are not necessarilly the same as us, and seeing if there's any small adjustments or accommodations we could make so that they can be themselves, and also a part of our group. And we should be doing this, just because it's right, and that's the sort of world we want to live in.

Re: Men In Tech

#85

Just what women need! Another middle-aged white man fighting for the women's rights. It's condescending. It's just a step away from "A Gay Girl in Damascus".

Hi, I have no idea if you are a woman or a man, but as a woman in tech, I feel compelled to reply. I appreciated this story. Not so much the comments attached to it on HN, but the story itself. If it got some guys thinking about how they would feel if this happened: "You don't look like a programmer! When did you get into computers? That's kinda hot..." Which has happened to me so many times I've lost count...usually…

I am male and have received the "you don't look like a programmer" comment on numerous occasions. It usually comes from other men, so it's not typically followed by the "are you single?" question. Is it the latter that makes you uncomfortable? To be brutally honest, I find that kind of question rather flattering.

Another one I frequently hear: I farm as a hobby. When I meet someone and talk about my farming adventures first, then tell them I also develop software, they are always like "Whoa, you know how to program computers? But you are a farmer!" like a farmer isn't smart enough to do that kind of work. Personally, I think it is funny knowing that farming is the one that is far more mentally challenging out of the two, but it really could be hurtful if directed at the wrong person.

Re: Men In Tech

#86
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> men are much more vulnerable than women. ... For men, it's almost impossible to protect ourselves What?

Sorry, I'm not a native speaker, only now I realize how this sounds... What I meant to say is, men can do almost nothing to prevent violence against them (or at least reduce the probability of it happening), since violence against men is (in my experience) often very random, and happens even in public places with a lot of other people involved. In contrast, women are almost never a target of physical violence, and th…

> In contrast, women are almost never a target of physical violence, and they can often avoid being a target of sexual violence using relatively simple measures, e.g. staying with friends and not getting drunk/drugged.

The number of women beaten (sometimes to death) by husbands / partners are alarming.

Women are rarely raped by strangers. They are raped by people they know - the 'friends' you suggest they stay with.

My next point is a bit tricky. Many people would find it offensive to suggest that the victim of violent crime should adjust their behaviour to stop doing lawful fun things. People enjoy being drunk. The focus should be on the men who rape drunk women, not on stopping women being drunk.

I'd agree there's a problem with people being drunk beyond the point of sensibility, and with men and women being so drunk they can not get nor give consent. That's a problem for society to deal with. It affects both men and women.

Re: Men In Tech

#87

Just what women need! Another middle-aged white man fighting for the women's rights. It's condescending. It's just a step away from "A Gay Girl in Damascus".

Hi, I have no idea if you are a woman or a man, but as a woman in tech, I feel compelled to reply. I appreciated this story. Not so much the comments attached to it on HN, but the story itself. If it got some guys thinking about how they would feel if this happened: "You don't look like a programmer! When did you get into computers? That's kinda hot..." Which has happened to me so many times I've lost count...usually…

I'm a man (and yes, my first name is Sasha).

>If it got some guys thinking about how they would feel if this happened:

>"You don't look like a programmer! When did you get into computers? That's kinda hot..."

I get THAT all the time. People (both men and women) don't believe that I'm a programmer because I don't look like a stereotypical geek. I'm over 6 feet tall, I work out, and I have numerous visible scars.

So, how do I feel about it? I don't. Why? Because I believe that people are honestly surprised to find a guy who looks like a cage fighter in this industry. They are even rarer than women. Sure, I can turn this into people discriminating against me based on my looks and start writing pointless posts, but I have projects to complete and a life to live.

>If it gets guys to stop saying THAT...then it was well worth the whole thing.

No, it will not get them to stop. The only reaction you'll get from a guy who reads that article is: "What a suck up!" A personal story written by a woman about the pain she went through because of such behavior will make them think hard about it. Guys do feel and most of us are not assholes on purpose.

Don't get me wrong, women do face real problems just because they are women and I feel their pain, but I don't believe that they need men writing about it. Women can and do speak for themselves. I don't believe that they are some fragile creatures that need a champion.

Re: Men In Tech

#88

Reading this is really awkward. And it's not awkward because it reveals some hidden truth, or because it's a good piece of writing that reflects on the issue it's tackling. No, instead it's awkward because the gender dynamics are not reversible. At least, not in the manner that's intended here. You can't just take the circumstances that women face in tech fields, and switch around the pronouns and have the circumstan…

You're being a tad too literal with your critique (if I may). The whole point is to take you into a realm that's utterly absurd from the male perspective -- which is entirely my point in writing this . Yes, male nurses face weird moments in life - but as you say it's mostly from other men. That has nothing to do with being a woman in the tech industry who get to listen to cracks about "being on the rag" or PMSing whe…

There's a couple ways i can see to go about this, but let me stick with my current frame.

I appreciate (more now than when i initially wrote my comment) that you're trying to take folks through the uncanny valley. My concern is that the 'ick' feeling you get from the uncanny valley relies upon the perception of the viewer. People who deny that sexism is a problem aren't going to follow you into the valley. They deny that there's a valley there at all.

With the mode that you've chosen to make your point I don't see how to address the criticisms from folks who deny sexism simply by saying "this guy is complaining about nothing, or perceived slights and imputed discomforts that aren't real, just the same way that women in the tech industry do!"

> Next time you're with a female coworker...

This kind of gets to the heart of the matter though doesn't it? Given the gender disparity in programming, most devs don't have female coworkers who aren't also separated by some other sort of cultural distinction (e.g. engineering vs. biz).

> ...notice how often you and the other men in the group look at her chest.

I will admit to having created awkward situations (that have gone unacknowledged by either me or female friend) by inadvertently doing this. Super, super awkward.

> You'd be surprised the shit women deal with.

I'm not surprised simply because my entire university career was spent in two different worlds. There was the computational linguistics world which was 50/50 gender split, and there were no weird unspoken assumption that dudes are better at compling than women are. And then there was the comp sci world, where my female friends from comp ling would get hit on in incredibly passive-aggressive ways, had group projects fall apart because a guy in the group was pissed off that my friend wouldn't go out with them, and the gender disparity was 1 (or maybe 2) girls out of a classroom of 40.

One of the reasons I think programming should be taught outside of computer science departments is to get away with the cultural assumptions and baggage that engineering fields like CS carry. That is also the reason why I currently work for journalists along side a journalism school. There are women out there who are interested in learning how to program, build tools, sift data and all manner of technical analytical tasks, they're just not in computer science. And frankly, i'm glad they're not.

Re: Men In Tech

#89
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're being a tad too literal with your critique (if I may). The whole point is to take you into a realm that's utterly absurd from the male perspective -- which is entirely my point in writing this . Yes, male nurses face weird moments in life - but as you say it's mostly from other men. That has nothing to do with being a woman in the tech industry who get to listen to cracks about "being on the rag" or PMSing whe…

Rob, I think that if you re-read knowtheory's comment you may find that your reply does not address its substance - and that, in fact, you are in broad agreement. Knowtheory cited the case of male nursing precisely because it's a dissimilar example to women in tech. His critique is that it's not enough just to swap gender roles, because we carry along all of the mental and cultural baggage associated with masculinity…

You're absolutely correct. I have methodological qualms, not material ones.

Thanks for pointing this out :)

Re: Men In Tech

#90
post #49
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, so what's the point in taking you into a realm that's utterly absurd? I'm not sure that it helps men relate to women's experiences if it feels absurd....

The point is that it's absurd, but women actually deal with this kind of shit. Ridiculous, huh?

Yeah, but folks who don't believe that women actually deal with this shit will just be completely unphased by the turn-around. They deny that this happens and that it is just women being "oversensitive" or "reading into things too much" or whatever.

You're not going to get them on board either by making the absurdist claim, or by trying to hook their sympathy through a post like this.

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