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Responding to Beggars

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Re: Responding to Beggars

#101

Post by v0cab »

DrJokepu wrote: post #84
johnsea wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read the parent post again, no problem with Bulgarian people in general. What's with your xenophobia/racism haunch? It is not unreasonable to discuss such effects due to relative open - e.g. compared to US - borders. Last year in Germany I myself saw 'gangs of beggars'. While not a problem, it annoys me when on touristic places you'll get asked for money every two minutes from one of the (romanian) women with child.…

The same reason you don't say black beggars or Mexican criminals. The racial or national background of these people might be interesting for sociologists but it's unhelpful in everyday discussions. It strips people of their dignity, whether it's intentional or not. Don't be that guy.

It is interesting and helpful, because the reasons that these beggars are operating in Sweden was given (internal migration within the EU).

If he hadn't said it, replies would have expressed surprise that the prosperous Swedes had resorted to aggressive organised criminal behaviour, and there would have been speculation on why that is.

There would also have been questions on why the government hasn't done anything about it yet, which he also addressed in his comment.

Stop telling us what we can and can't talk about.

Re: Responding to Beggars

#102

Post by aes256 »

DanBC wrote: post #45
prawn wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or mental illness?

I don't know about Netherlands, but in UK there's a complex mix of substance misuse and mental illness amongst the homeless population. It's difficult to know which causes what. In theory "homelessness" is a solved problem in the UK. In practice, there are people who sleep on the streets and there are people who are effectively homeless but who have short term accommodation and there are plenty of beggars.

> In theory "homelessness" is a solved problem in the UK. In practice, there are people who sleep on the streets and there are people who are effectively homeless but who have short term accommodation and there are plenty of beggars.

The situation in the UK is somewhat unique. As you mention, homelessness is not really an issue. All homeless people are entitled to benefits to cover accommodation and food.

Unfortunately people still tend to associate begging with homelessness, when the link between the two is tenuous at best. The overwhelming majority of beggars are not actually homeless, and most are begging to fund a drug addition (see: http://www.thamesreach.org.uk/news-and-views/campaigns/givin...)

There really is no need for anyone in the UK to beg in order to survive, hence why begging in public is illegal.

Re: Responding to Beggars

#103

Post by v0cab »

fogol wrote: post #95
Muzza wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The situation is similar in Sweden, but I have thankfully not heard of anyone disfiguring someone else for these purposes. Yet. One of the glorious benefits of being a member of the EU is that we now have to put up with organized gangs of beggars coming in from Romania, Bulgaria etc harassing us on our streets. (The leftists have proposed that we add these people to our welfare rolls and give them their own apartment…

I fail to see how the gypsy beggars are the problem and not your legislation or enforcement. If hostile begging is an issue, legislate it out of the streets. Pass a law that would criminalise it once you've been caught three times. Instead of complaining, you better appeal to your fellow citizens and solve it

> I fail to see how the gypsy beggars are the problem and not your legislation or enforcement. If hostile begging is an issue, legislate it out of the streets.

He did explain why that wasn't being done.

> Instead of complaining, you better appeal to your fellow citizens and solve it.

Wouldn't that involve some complaining?

Anyway, I notice you didn't say that to wilfra. Why doesn't he get accused 'complaining'?

Why didn't you try to solve the issues in your post with action instead of with complaining?

Re: Responding to Beggars

#104

Post by v0cab »

mpusr wrote: post #66
Muzza wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am certainly not responsible in any way for (for instance) Romania's poverty. There was this guy called Ceaușescu; he had a little bit to do with it.

that may be so, but the actual beggars are not at fault, and this is important. simply because someone was not born within the borders of your country does not make them any less human. This is the point. A swedish life is worth no more or less than a romanian one. Your nationalist attitude is baseless. You happen to be born in sweden, they happen to be born in romania. If the tables were turned I'm sure you wouldn't…

The tables are turned. Someone born in Western Europe might well lead a life of poverty while a Japanese or South Korean person will have a great education, get a job straight out of university, and not want for material needs. Will South Korea or Japan donate their money to help such people, or allow them immigrate to their safe countries? They will not. Do you think the Chinese will?

Re: Responding to Beggars

#105

Post by aes256 »

kgrin wrote: post #14
kkwok wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the video. Interesting round to watch--makes me miss my debate days. Which direction did it shift your views?

In the direction of giving - either money, or if time allows, something like what Stallman is doing/advocating. The main thing that shifted my views was the notion that even if the money is "wasted" (or might be more effective dollar-for-dollar elsewhere), there's a lot to be said for the human connection - and that even if the recipient is operating under false pretenses (which does happen sometimes), that human con…

> In the direction of giving - either money, or if time allows, something like what Stallman is doing/advocating. The main thing that shifted my views was the notion that even if the money is "wasted" (or might be more effective dollar-for-dollar elsewhere), there's a lot to be said for the human connection - and that even if the recipient is operating under false pretenses (which does happen sometimes), that human connection is worth it.

Pardon me if this was mentioned in the debate — unfortunately I'm not in a position to watch the video at the moment — but the worst case in giving money to beggars is not just that the money is "wasted".

In the UK, the overwhelming majority of beggars are not homeless, and are simply begging to fund a drug addiction (usually to 'Class A' drugs such as heroin). A survey by Westminster Council found 86 percent of people begging spend the money they receive on drugs and alcohol, and seven out of ten of those arrested for begging (begging in public is illegal in the UK, although enforcement of the law is sporadic) had Class A drugs in their system (see: http://www.thamesreach.org.uk/news-and-views/campaigns/givin...)

In other words, when you give money to a beggar in the UK, you are more than likely funding a Class A drug addiction. An addiction that drastically reduces that person's life expectancy, and increases their chances of premature death due to an overdose.

Re: Responding to Beggars

#106

Post by makmanalp »

shocks wrote: post #87

In the UK we have The Big Issue. It's a magazine only sold by homeless people, for £2.50 per magazine. The sellers buy each magazine for £1.25. The sellers are trained, sign a code of conduct and wear badges so you can recognise them easily. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Issue I like this approach because I know that they have some degree of control. For example, they can't spend all the money on booze/drugs beca…

In the Boston / Cambridge area where Stallman is talking about, we have "Spare Change":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spare_Change_News

There just are more homeless people that gather there than can viably all sell the newspaper.

Re: Responding to Beggars

#107

Post by mistercow »

I really don't understand why people care so much what the beggar uses the money for. Give him a dollar, or don't. If you do, don't worry that he might use it to buy booze; just feel good that you did something nice for someone. If you don't, don't try to justify it to yourself by saying he might be a liar. Just say "I have the right to not give beggars money because it's my money" and be done with it.

There, I solved all of your altruism problems. You're welcome.

Re: Responding to Beggars

#108

Post by crumblan »

georgieporgie wrote: post #3

In SF, I witnessed the classic: guy offers sandwich to 'hungry' homeless guy. Homeless guy responds, "what kind is it?" Apparently, beggars can be choosers.

It's a psychological reaction to having very little control over anything around you to exert more control in any area you can. It's not ironically funny, it's ironically sad.

Re: Responding to Beggars

#110

Post by DrJokepu »

v0cab wrote: post #101
DrJokepu wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same reason you don't say black beggars or Mexican criminals. The racial or national background of these people might be interesting for sociologists but it's unhelpful in everyday discussions. It strips people of their dignity, whether it's intentional or not. Don't be that guy.

It is interesting and helpful, because the reasons that these beggars are operating in Sweden was given (internal migration within the EU). If he hadn't said it, replies would have expressed surprise that the prosperous Swedes had resorted to aggressive organised criminal behaviour, and there would have been speculation on why that is. There would also have been questions on why the government hasn't done anything ab…

Look, this is about good manners, not censorship. Everything you've just said is trivial and unhelpful. Naming ethnicities this way will only make you look like a fool and undermine the point you're trying to make.
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