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Sweden Is a NATO Member

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Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#281
post #3

Looking at the flag colours I cannot but think that Sweden is paving the way for Ukraine's membership.

I know Ukraine will not and cannot do this, but writing off it's East and Crimea would enable NATO membership and EU ascension.

> I know Ukraine will not and cannot do this, but writing off it's East and Crimea would enable NATO membership and EU ascension.

No, it wouldn't.

NATO deciding it was willing to piss off Russia (which is why, without those active conflicts, Ukraine and Georgia were denied MAPs in 2008) would allow NATO membership. There's no actual rule that would prevent Ukraine from joining during the invasion (and even if there was, any NATO rule can be changed, either in a general way or to add a sui generis exception, by the same group -- all NATO members agreeing together -- required to admit a new member under the existing rule, so the rule would not actually be an additional barrier.)

"But," you might object, "even if there is not a rule preventing it, Ukraine joining while the Russian invasion continues would be impractical because it would immediately trigger Article 5, as long as Russian forces were engaging Ukrainian forces anywhere in the country, or even occupying any part of the country."

That could be managed, though, by admitting Ukraine while adopting either a general (for later review) or temporary with explicit time limits or other terminating conditions exclusion of some parts of its territory from Article 5 (not all the territory of all NATO members is covered by Article 5 now.)

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#282
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A bigger alliance is harder to defeat in war. Also, a bigger alliance requires each member to contribute fewer troops to manage a common defense. Sweden is a fairly wealthy country that can contribute the required amount to NATO. Sweden's ports are beneficial in a potential Arctic conflict. Finally, Sweden does not bring any new potential conflicts/enemies with it.

But also, a bigger alliance creates a larger amount of territory to defend. For example if the US were to leave NATO, they miss out on all the benefits that European NATO members provide, but also would not need to defend Europe, which is where any war involving NATO members is likely to happen. It seems to me that the US gains very little from being in NATO.

the US believes Russia invading more of Europe is not in their interest. I'm not sure why that is hard to understand.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU is independent of the US. There's a difference between alliance and dependency (and EU isn't coextensive with European NATO, but they are pretty close.)

In most ways yes, but militarily there's definitely some dependence on the US. A lot of European militaries were found to have relatively bare cupboards when the time to donate things to Ukraine came. Germany's Army Chief straight up said the army wasn't capable of fulfilling its mission. (And yeah the US struggled with artillery shells too, the difference is that the US has so much airpower it had a legit reason to…

Militarily the USA has always had the need to keep stockpiles: it's been in many, many wars or performing larger military maneuvers for the past 70+ years.

European militaries didn't have to consider a large production capacity, neither stockpiling weapons since mostly weren't involved in large military actions (exceptions probably are France and the UK). In terms of efficiency that is what is expected, why waste taxes for stockpiling unused weapons?

Europe dropped the ball after 2014 on not taking note that Russia was going in a new direction, Georgia 2008 was an early warning but Ukraine 2014 should've been a massive alarm that at least some production capacity was needed. Still, it wasn't at all politically viable at the time, it'd be political suicide for any politician outside of Eastern Europe to spend more money on the military and its industry rather than education, healthcare, etc.

Since 2022 everything has changed, the change is slow but steady and will only keep happening, Rheinmetall is steadily growing production, and many other military industries are expanding across the continent, Putin made politically viable for Europe to spend on its military again.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#284
post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Firstly, he has said so many times. Secondly, he's a lying sack of shit. Third. Don't be a useful idiot.

I don't see anyone calling you a NAFO shill, why do you feel entitled to calling others useful idiots?

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#285
post #18

Serious question, what does this change? NATO gets a bit more revenue from Swedish taxpayers? So what?

If you look at the Baltic Sea before and after the invasion of Ukraine, that was largely a neutral space (before) that has since turned into a NATO one -- excluding only the Russian exclave of Kaliningrad. I would argue this makes any further move by Russia in that space quite problematic.

[deleted]

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Guaranteed access to Ikea furniture in times of war.

And delicious meatballs for the troops

It isn't hard to make better meatballs than what Ikea sells. For that matter if you think Ikea furniture is good you have no idea what good really is.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#287
post #258

I get that we've decided 'NATO Good' now -- but are people really so sure that it's sphere of influence is geopolitically stabilizing? I don't see how it could be. If I were Russia, or an ally of Russia, an expansionist NATO would be galvanizing for me and would accelerate a counterbalance alliance. Creating a potentially entrenched conflict in countries that have surface-to-surface access to Moscow would be in my be…

You do realize that Russia invading a peaceful country that was turning more towards democracy and away from dictatorships like Russia is what pushed Sweden and Finland into NATO, in fear of Russia invading and terror bombing them? Not protecting yourself, and letting Russia do whatever they want, is what countries did to Nazi Germany for years. Have we learned nothing from history?

Russia being bad does not make Nato good. Just like Nato being bad does not make Russia good.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#288
Only downside for Sweden really is that they are now recommended to spend >=2% of GDP for defense.

Otherwise, congratulations. Same as Finland, Sweden is hige NET benefit for alliance, welcome friends!

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't, at least officially, Hitler the guy that killed Hitler? Or that was the joke and it flew over my head?

That is indeed the joke. Hopefully you don't get downvoted for asking a question.

It was a very well veiled one too. If not for your comment I would not have realized it. I suspect people downvoting it didn't get it either.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does NATO benefit?

A bigger alliance is harder to defeat in war. Also, a bigger alliance requires each member to contribute fewer troops to manage a common defense. Sweden is a fairly wealthy country that can contribute the required amount to NATO. Sweden's ports are beneficial in a potential Arctic conflict. Finally, Sweden does not bring any new potential conflicts/enemies with it.

>Sweden's ports are beneficial in a potential Arctic conflict

How? Norway (long a member) has Arctic ports, Sweden does not touch the Arctic.

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