Sweden Is a NATO Member • Hacker News Board

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#121

Post by tharmas » Thu, Mar 07, 2024, 5:41 PM UTC

troupo wrote: post #68

tharmas wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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Russia: signed the memorandum guaranteeing Ukraine's borders, sovereignty and independence. Also Russia: "NATO pinky promised in a discussion between two people no one remembers that it wouldn't expand East, so we're invading Ukraine and threatening you with nuclear war"

They signed when they were weak. That's Great Power Politics. The USA was sole Hegemon. It could do whatever it wanted. The West continued to provoke Russia because the West knew Russia was too weak to do anything about it. The West's arrogance was in underestimating how Russia would react as they continued to provoke them. (By "provoke" I mean doing things that the West knew that the Russians wouldn't like). The neocons in Washington were quite happy to see Russia invade Ukraine. They thought it was Afghanistan 2.0 (Soviet invasion, I'm referring too). The neocons thought they could bleed Russia dry using Ukraine as a proxy to bring down the Putin regime. A huge miscalculation. Now Russia and China a friends. In Great Power Politics that is a huge blunder. Why do you think Nixon, a staunch anti-communist, would do a deal with China? Answer is: Great Power Politics.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#122

Post by CogitoCogito » Thu, Mar 07, 2024, 5:41 PM UTC

tharmas wrote: post #80

avtolik wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the people of Ukraine want to get in NATO for protection, how is this the West being arrogant?

Study great power politics and you will understand what I mean. Russia is a nuclear power. That means no matter how much you dislike them for whatever reasons you don't go giving them the finger. That's like giving the Mafia boss the finger when he has a gun pointed at your head. You might think that's brave defiance but inarguably that will get you killed. Study the outrage in the USA when Russia put nuclear missile…

Ukraine hasn't even been formally offered membership in NATO. They've never had any realistic prospect to join. Russia invaded Ukraine without provocation. Stop pretending otherwise.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#123

Post by bombcar » Thu, Mar 07, 2024, 5:41 PM UTC

hbrav wrote: post #37

pphysch wrote: post #18

Serious question, what does this change? NATO gets a bit more revenue from Swedish taxpayers? So what?

The most significant change is that any attack on Sweden would require other NATO countries to come to Sweden's defence, and vice versa. It means that Sweden would also take part in more joint training exercises, share more intelligence, etc. with other NATO members.

To be precise Article 5 requires the countries to consider an attack on Sweden to be an attack on them, and they shall respond as they see fit.

In an actual attack, they may see fit to do nothing - it will come down to the circumstances.

In other words, if Russia attacks Sweden and the US decides to ignore it, there's not much NATO can do but kick the US out.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#124

Post by renegade-otter » Thu, Mar 07, 2024, 5:41 PM UTC

ursuscamp wrote: post #104

pavlov wrote: post #7

Just in time for Trump to do the rug pull he agreed with Putin back in 2018, when they met in Helsinki and Trump took care to even destroy translator’s notes. If he wins the election, NATO is toast and Putin has carte blanche over East Europe.

This ridiculous hysteria serves no purpose. People said all these same things before his first election, and if anything Trump just accelerated aggression with Russia, just like every president before him and Biden after him.

Apologies for our Trump Derangement Syndrome. When he said that he will pull the US out of NATO and that Putin can do "whatever he wants", we will just pretend he is a comedian doing a bit.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#125

Post by safgasCVS » Thu, Mar 07, 2024, 5:41 PM UTC

Lemme be the guy who farts in the elevator. Sweden has managed to avoid entangling itself in military conflicts around the world for centuries and by joining NATO it’s got itself security but at the expense of potentially involving itself in conflicts regardless if Swedes want to be involved or not. Anyways it seems popular in Sweden but the naive lefty in me still thinks it’s a shame at the collective high-fiving

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#126

Post by dralley » Thu, Mar 07, 2024, 5:42 PM UTC

yawnxyz wrote: post #62

Yes, this is a great way to fight against Putin, but... As a Swedish citizen, I think this means in the future Sweden's forces will be dragged into another Iraq-like war down the line. Sooner or later the US or NATO will be the Putin of today, and I don't look forward to that.

The only way that would happen, is if a NATO member was attacked first, on a territory in the North Atlantic. A NATO member who goes off on their own and starts a war isn't entitled to calling NATO to its defense.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#127

Post by KingOfCoders » Thu, Mar 07, 2024, 5:42 PM UTC

dylan604 wrote: post #49

KingOfCoders wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has been going better than the last 30 years. Military cooperation in Europe broke down with the last Reforger of '93. It is great that Europe cooperates more, the view of the US public on NATO can be seen in any US TV series or Hollywood film - it does not exist.

> the view of the US public on NATO can be seen in any US TV series or Hollywood film - it does not exist. I wouldn't say it doesn't exist. To me, it's always more of that "we'll let you guys muck about until it's totally obvious you're not going to fix it, then we'll ride in to save the day" attitude. Not saying that's accurate, but that's how it's portrayed by Hollywood

What Hollywood film that involves the US military does include NATO militaries? Rewatching SG-1, and of course it's US only.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#128

Post by seydor » Thu, Mar 07, 2024, 5:42 PM UTC

This is actually very significant, this time NATO expands to the west, and who knows where next.

I wonder what was the debate in Sweden all this time (beyond the waiting for some dictators to give them the final approval)

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#129

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Mar 07, 2024, 5:42 PM UTC

yawnxyz wrote: post #62

Yes, this is a great way to fight against Putin, but... As a Swedish citizen, I think this means in the future Sweden's forces will be dragged into another Iraq-like war down the line. Sooner or later the US or NATO will be the Putin of today, and I don't look forward to that.

[deleted]

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#130

Post by tharmas » Thu, Mar 07, 2024, 5:42 PM UTC

alienicecream wrote: post #111

Adding another western European country that's under no threat from anyone to NATO isn't going to do anything. We should be adding backwards countries that share borders with or are targets of major enemies, like Georgia and Taiwan. You can't control the world if all you're doing is protecting yourself and your buddies from yourself and your buddies. We need to get Israel in NATO so that the next time Hezbollah fires…

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