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Sweden Is a NATO Member

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Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#101

Post by tw04 »

pphysch wrote: post #76
nicolapede wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you look at the Baltic Sea before and after the invasion of Ukraine, that was largely a neutral space (before) that has since turned into a NATO one -- excluding only the Russian exclave of Kaliningrad. I would argue this makes any further move by Russia in that space quite problematic.

Sweden and Finland have been in the EU for almost 30 years. Sweden joining NATO does not really change the geopolitics of the Baltic.

Of course it does. Sweden and Finland being members of the EU had absolutely 0 bearing on the US getting involved in a war with Russia. Do you honestly think Russia would've tried to invade Ukraine if they were NATO members?

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#102

Post by MilStdJunkie »

hbrav wrote: post #37
pphysch wrote: post #18

Serious question, what does this change? NATO gets a bit more revenue from Swedish taxpayers? So what?

The most significant change is that any attack on Sweden would require other NATO countries to come to Sweden's defence, and vice versa. It means that Sweden would also take part in more joint training exercises, share more intelligence, etc. with other NATO members.

Surprised I had to scroll down to see this. Collective defense means expanded nuclear umbrella from the nuke powers in NATO. TFCMA/WP/Russian doctrine has always allowed a free hand for local commanders to use tactical weapons - a very tempting option to deal with Sweden[1] in the event of a Baltic/Kaliningrad land grab. Admission to NATO is a barrier to that, since the West doesn't exactly believe in small bites when it comes to nuclear weapons. Tactical nuclear weapon usage against member states would very likely have a strategic response.

[1] And Finland, which is also coming over.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#103

Post by thebeardisred »

dataflow wrote: post #46

Does being in NATO obligate you to respond militarily if another member is attacked (as is commonly believed)? I failed to find this clause in the text last time I looked. Edit: for everyone telling me to read article 5: I already have, hence this question. It says each member "will assist [...] by taking [...] such action as it deems necessary". That very much doesn't appear to obligate a military response, or any r…

Thanks for asking this question. In reading the links to Article 5 I discovered that Ireland is not a member of NATO in an attempt to have a Swiss type of military neutrality.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#104

Post by ursuscamp »

pavlov wrote: post #7

Just in time for Trump to do the rug pull he agreed with Putin back in 2018, when they met in Helsinki and Trump took care to even destroy translator’s notes. If he wins the election, NATO is toast and Putin has carte blanche over East Europe.

This ridiculous hysteria serves no purpose. People said all these same things before his first election, and if anything Trump just accelerated aggression with Russia, just like every president before him and Biden after him.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#105

Post by realityking »

yawnxyz wrote: post #62

Yes, this is a great way to fight against Putin, but... As a Swedish citizen, I think this means in the future Sweden's forces will be dragged into another Iraq-like war down the line. Sooner or later the US or NATO will be the Putin of today, and I don't look forward to that.

Germany and France, both NATO members, did bot participate in the Iraq war. Also NATO itself did not as there was no consensus among the members to be involved.

In Afghanistan there was the necessary consensus (and Article 5 was invoked) so NATO took an active role and ran ISAF - to which Sweden contributed quite significant troops.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#106

Post by KingOfCoders »

apercu wrote: post #42
stronglikedan wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When, not if, and that's a good thing. I don't share your alarmist view. I think the other members of NATO will just start doing their fair share, as they should.

I imagine that the actual truth to the situation is far more complicated than either of us understand and that NATO provides substantial benefits to the United States.

NATO membership enables the US to have air bases in the UK and Turkey, Navy bases in Spain and Italy, and in other parts of Europe with overflight rights for military planes.

Most of the air traffic for the US wars in the middle east goes through Germany, and most injured soldiers go back through Germany [0] Many US soldiers survive because they get through Landstuhl.

Ramstein is also rumored to be the primary operation center for drone strikes, although the US military denies this.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landstuhl_Regional_Medical_Cen...

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#107

Post by jajko »

s_dev wrote: post #23
factorialboy wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget the contribution and sacrifice of Ukraine

Or the blackmailing by Hungary and Turkey.

Its funny with Hungary, Orban is such an incompetent ruler that currently Hungary is paying way above market prices for gas from Russia. So much for being friends with benefits with russia. You can see how it all is a series of really not that smart moves for Hungary for a long time, borderline treason.

And one point generally - please lets stop calling whats happening in Ukraine in any other way than War. putin's war - its a perfect name I'll keep repeating till it sticks around, or I'll die trying.

Its relatively personal to me, my home country (former Czechoslovakia) was basically enslaved by russian cough cough soviet forces for decades, people shot or electrocuted when trying to escape (around 500 recorded officially), tens of thousands murdered in other indirect ways (gulags or uranium mines with no ticket back, or just beaten to death in some cold dungeon). I see basically 0 change from that russia to modern one and how it values things like human life, freedom etc.

It looked briefly better, much better, but those times are over for good and russia is firmly back at cold/not so cold war with whole western world. Currently trying to subvert quite a few places in Africa. I hope western 3-letter agencies are few steps ahead.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#108

Post by renegade-otter »

Being a NATO member gives a nation more security than nuclear weapons, effectively.

Nuclear states can and HAVE gone to wars - but no one wants to mess with the devastating conventional power of NATO.

After the recent gutting, Russia has a few dozen SU-34s that can fly. NATO has thousands of planes.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#110

Post by alexisbear »

dataflow wrote: post #46

Does being in NATO obligate you to respond militarily if another member is attacked (as is commonly believed)? I failed to find this clause in the text last time I looked. Edit: for everyone telling me to read article 5: I already have, hence this question. It says each member "will assist [...] by taking [...] such action as it deems necessary". That very much doesn't appear to obligate a military response, or any r…

It doesn't obligate members to respond militarily, it obligates NATO members to consider an attack against a member as an attack against them. Retaliation and any other action needs to be discussed by NATO members and can also be vetoed.

A lot of people seem to think that if article 5 is brandished, war will result, it absolutely depends on what the council will agree upon.

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