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Sweden Is a NATO Member

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Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#41

Post by KingOfCoders »

pavlov wrote: post #7

Just in time for Trump to do the rug pull he agreed with Putin back in 2018, when they met in Helsinki and Trump took care to even destroy translator’s notes. If he wins the election, NATO is toast and Putin has carte blanche over East Europe.

Poland defended Western Europe from a Russian invasion in 1920 and will do so again.

Reagan was the last defender of Europe (you can like him or not, having grown up in a left political climate in the 70s of Germany, I didn't), and Reforger '93 was the last time the US seriously considered defending Western Europe. It's clear that at least from Clinton on, the defense of Europe as a necessity for balancing world power was no longer on the table, "It's the economy, stupid!".

Putin will create a crisis in the baltics and invade Poland over the Suwałki Gap, gets his ass kicked, troops getting stuck, there will be negotiations and that's that. Putin couldn't get weak Ukraine (Crimea was a coup) - Russia has 3.5x times the people and 100x the money - it's funny how people in the West still believe in the Soviet Union and the Red Army, against all evidence. The best troops of the Warsaw Pact were East Germanys NVA, and losing that and all other satelite states like Poland, there is no more Red Army.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#42

Post by apercu »

stronglikedan wrote: post #19
pavlov wrote: post #7

Just in time for Trump to do the rug pull he agreed with Putin back in 2018, when they met in Helsinki and Trump took care to even destroy translator’s notes. If he wins the election, NATO is toast and Putin has carte blanche over East Europe.

When, not if, and that's a good thing. I don't share your alarmist view. I think the other members of NATO will just start doing their fair share, as they should.

I imagine that the actual truth to the situation is far more complicated than either of us understand and that NATO provides substantial benefits to the United States.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#43

Post by overstay8930 »

tharmas wrote: post #5
iam-TJ wrote: post #3

Looking at the flag colours I cannot but think that Sweden is paving the way for Ukraine's membership.

[flagged]

The west is arrogant because everyone else is trying to bring back feudalism lol

There's a reason non-western aligned countries are a bunch of corrupt shitholes, they want more serfs to do their bidding and the west is showing their population what their life could be and ruining their plans.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#45

Post by madspindel »

tharmas wrote: post #22
lawn wrote: post #2

Finally. I'm going to celebrate by opening a bottle of red wine from Ukraine, seems fitting.

[flagged]

What? It's Putin & Russia that's destroying Ukraine. Sweden is joining Nato to deter Putin. And now Sweden will send JAS 39 Gripen to Ukraine. A fighter aircraft designed to bonk Russians.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#46

Post by dataflow »

Does being in NATO obligate you to respond militarily if another member is attacked (as is commonly believed)? I failed to find this clause in the text last time I looked.

Edit: for everyone telling me to read article 5: I already have, hence this question. It says each member "will assist [...] by taking [...] such action as it deems necessary". That very much doesn't appear to obligate a military response, or any response at all.

To put it another way, the treaty really doesn't seem to mean much, so far as I can tell? Countries could already help each other out (or not) anyway... no?

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#47

Post by troupo »

SAI_Peregrinus wrote: post #36
cactusplant7374 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The exercise in team work has not been going great so far. It doesn't look like their is a path to victory in Ukraine and Europe is hesitant to commit any troops. There are some rumblings from Macron but most of Europe would prefer to send just enough weapons so Putin can't move forward and Ukraine can't push them out.

Most of Europe is in NATO. NATO nations committing troops would likely drag all of NATO into war with Russia, increasing the chance of a nuclear war. That's not something NATO wants.

1. It's really doubtful Russia will commit to nuclear war.

2. If it does, it will do that regardless of whether or not NATO enters the war or not. Russia has signalled it has no intentions of stopping its war of conquest

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#48

Post by maximilianburke »

tharmas wrote: post #5
iam-TJ wrote: post #3

Looking at the flag colours I cannot but think that Sweden is paving the way for Ukraine's membership.

[flagged]

How is the west being arrogant if the new member states want to join? It's not the west who invaded Georgia in 2008 or Crimea in 2014. It's not the west that invaded Ukraine in 2022. Countries bordering Russia have, for decades, known the threat that Russian imperialism is to them and it's their choice to protect themselves from an extremely aggressive, brutal neighbour.

Re: Sweden Is a NATO Member

#49

Post by dylan604 »

KingOfCoders wrote: post #17
cactusplant7374 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The exercise in team work has not been going great so far. It doesn't look like their is a path to victory in Ukraine and Europe is hesitant to commit any troops. There are some rumblings from Macron but most of Europe would prefer to send just enough weapons so Putin can't move forward and Ukraine can't push them out.

It has been going better than the last 30 years. Military cooperation in Europe broke down with the last Reforger of '93. It is great that Europe cooperates more, the view of the US public on NATO can be seen in any US TV series or Hollywood film - it does not exist.

> the view of the US public on NATO can be seen in any US TV series or Hollywood film - it does not exist.

I wouldn't say it doesn't exist. To me, it's always more of that "we'll let you guys muck about until it's totally obvious you're not going to fix it, then we'll ride in to save the day" attitude. Not saying that's accurate, but that's how it's portrayed by Hollywood

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