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Nikon to acquire RED

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Re: Nikon to acquire RED

#61

Post by ryandamm »

KaiserPro wrote: post #29
7moritz7 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am I reading this right in that Red has somehow managed to patent the idea of compressing 4K RAW footage on device which holds up the whole industry?

the patent is this one: https://patents.google.com/patent/US7830967B1/en Which looks like it's patenting debayering. However I'm not a patent lawyer so I don't know. I suspect that Nikon were using something like jpeg2000 to store raw frames, and thats why RED were getting all pissy.

It’s patenting compressing the raw photo site values before debayering, which saves space and in theory allows for better, non-realtime debayering algorithms (more relevant when the patent was filed).

Re: Nikon to acquire RED

#62

Post by steveBK123 »

Smart for Nikon as they've been losing relevance somewhat to Sony/Canon, and not had a great video offering. So this immediately makes them a competitor in the space.

Given how the stills & cine markets have contracted and converged, its unlikely Nikon & RED would survive in a healthy fashion as standalone for say the next decade.

Re: Nikon to acquire RED

#63

Post by steveBK123 »

dharma1 wrote: post #41
hnenjoyer_93 wrote: post #8

Interesting that some time ago Red filed a lawsuit against Nikon for using a RAW video compression algorithm that Red claimed infringed its patents, but later dismissed it: https://dpreview.com/news/5338402238/red-is-suing-nikon-for-... https://dpreview.com/news/9301564383/nikon-denies-red-s-laws... https://www.newsshooter.com/2023/04/28/red-patent-lawsuit-ag...

They settled out of court, Nikon started paying licensing fees. Was confirmed by Jarred on a podcast last year. Maybe that’s what’s partially responsible for the acquisition - also Red struggling to get market share from Arri Alexa on bigger budget productions, and facing pretty stiff competition from lower priced cameras by Blackmagic, Sony etc

Right, its like RED was in the middle market, which is a bad place to be in any product/industry. Too expensive for consumers, but still not able to command premium pricing from top end pros?

Re: Nikon to acquire RED

#64

Post by Washuu »

prawn wrote: post #46
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canon absolutely owns the video market, in many ways. Different context from RED, but you see Canon DSLR video cameras everywhere , especially consumer-level stuff, like streamcasters. Most videos you see, by semipro influencers, and whatnot, are recorded on Canon kit. Also, the TV and movie industry makes heavy use of Canon DSLR kit for their work. It’s an interesting acquisition, and I wish them luck. The rub will…

I don't work with anyone who's streaming specifically, but when shooting tourism content for social media and web everyone I've noticed has been Sony - either the Alpha bodies, or FX6/FS7 for more career video guys. What Canon bodies are you thinking of? Something like R5 or C70?

I am a streamer/content creator: Most of what I encounter in order is Sony, Canon, and sometimes time Lumix.

Sony has held the crown for the best auto-focusing system for a long time now which for content creators can be very important. Canon is also pretty good, but Sony really has gone all in making sure their system works really well for many scenarios.(People, animals, face and eye tracking.) Lumix's auto-focus system is passable and only if the lens itself works well with it.

Personally I use a mixture of Sony and Canon lenses on a Sony A7S III along with a Sony A7R IV. I used to have a Lumix S1H that I loved the image rendering, but buying lenses for L-Mount was difficult since it is such a new mount. I would love to use Canon exclusively since their button layouts are far superior to Sony's absolute mess.

Re: Nikon to acquire RED

#65

Post by royjacobs »

hef19898 wrote: post #38
atoav wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Red cameras are overhyped, but picture quality is not the issue. It is very likely that what you describe is more due stylistic differences in lighting, color grading and editing than due to the camera itself — coming from someone who professionally had to match colors on films shot on multiple different cameras on more than one occasion. Reliability is the main reason why Red cameras are overhyped, but you get good…

As a photographer I know next to nothing about film, let alone cinema. Hence the question, is ARRI gear really as good as people say, and as expensive?

I worked with ARRI for a few years when they were working on the predecessor to the ARRI Alexa, called the D-20. That was already an awesome camera but they didn't really take it into production because they wanted to make it simpler, easier to use and basically "better". They could've shipped, but they waited multiple years because they wanted their flagship digital camera to live up to their reputation. It's extremely well-deserved.

Re: Nikon to acquire RED

#66

Post by nazka »

Almondsetat wrote: post #44
justforasingle wrote: post #24

Pretty interesting. If you look on netflix approved camera list[0] there are none from Nikon. Personally I think RED cameras are overhyped and are a major reason most netflix shows all look and feel the same. I don't think its the colour grading or lenses - its something about the camera itself that just feels shit and doesn't give me the same access to a scene the same way something like sony's HDVS from 30 years ag…

Any RAW image that comes out of a modern digital sensor can be made to look like anything else, as Steve Yedlin thoroughly demonstrated. They look the same because they are lit, edited and color graded the same

Yep. This is the correct answer to OP.

Re: Nikon to acquire RED

#67

Post by prawn »

Washuu wrote: post #64
prawn wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't work with anyone who's streaming specifically, but when shooting tourism content for social media and web everyone I've noticed has been Sony - either the Alpha bodies, or FX6/FS7 for more career video guys. What Canon bodies are you thinking of? Something like R5 or C70?

I am a streamer/content creator: Most of what I encounter in order is Sony, Canon, and sometimes time Lumix. Sony has held the crown for the best auto-focusing system for a long time now which for content creators can be very important. Canon is also pretty good, but Sony really has gone all in making sure their system works really well for many scenarios.(People, animals, face and eye tracking.) Lumix's auto-focus s…

Yes, that is my understanding also regarding the autofocus preferences for content creators. Even accounting for people picking their body and then graduating to shooting manual focus afterwards.

FWIW, my wife shoots Sony after moving from Canon, and I have a Lumix S5ii and GH5.

Re: Nikon to acquire RED

#68

Post by timc3 »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #33
dylan604 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This will level the field? If you think Canon's cine options are equal to Red maybe it levels it. However, I think this tilts the field away from Canon to Nikon's favor while leaning more toward Sony as well than Canon. Maybe Canon can tilt it back in their favor if they were to buy Alexa.

Canon absolutely owns the video market, in many ways. Different context from RED, but you see Canon DSLR video cameras everywhere , especially consumer-level stuff, like streamcasters. Most videos you see, by semipro influencers, and whatnot, are recorded on Canon kit. Also, the TV and movie industry makes heavy use of Canon DSLR kit for their work. It’s an interesting acquisition, and I wish them luck. The rub will…

Canon has a good share of the market but not to the extent that you are suggesting. Sony is massive particularly for semipro influencers, Panasonic some share, Nikon very little.

Source: Managing 150PB+ of customers video content.

Re: Nikon to acquire RED

#69

Post by foldr »

kworks wrote: post #56
archerx wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> as Steve Yedlin thoroughly demonstrated I'm interested in this, do you have a link?

Some Yedlin links. I found his process to be methodical, precise, thorough and definitive. The question as to whether there is any perceptible visual difference between film and video that has been post-produced by an expert was definitively answered for me. Resolution Demos: https://www.yedlin.net/ResDemo/index.html On Color Science for Filmmakers: https://www.yedlin.net/OnColorScience/index.html

Pet peeve, by why do people persist in using wide aperture closeups to test resolution? If almost everything in the frame is out of focus, then duh, you're not going to notice much difference between 'high resolution' and 'very high resolution'.

Re: Nikon to acquire RED

#70

Post by hef19898 »

dharma1 wrote: post #41
hnenjoyer_93 wrote: post #8

Interesting that some time ago Red filed a lawsuit against Nikon for using a RAW video compression algorithm that Red claimed infringed its patents, but later dismissed it: https://dpreview.com/news/5338402238/red-is-suing-nikon-for-... https://dpreview.com/news/9301564383/nikon-denies-red-s-laws... https://www.newsshooter.com/2023/04/28/red-patent-lawsuit-ag...

They settled out of court, Nikon started paying licensing fees. Was confirmed by Jarred on a podcast last year. Maybe that’s what’s partially responsible for the acquisition - also Red struggling to get market share from Arri Alexa on bigger budget productions, and facing pretty stiff competition from lower priced cameras by Blackmagic, Sony etc

Makes sense from a Nikon perspective: I have to pay anyway, over period X that amounts to sum Y, put that next the acquisition price and the estimatebof how long you want to use the tech you are paying for and there is your business case.

Plus, you get new business and a new product range you don't have yet. That alone justifies an acquisition.

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