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Alan Kay's talk at UCLA – Feb 2024 [video]

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Re: Alan Kay's talk at UCLA – Feb 2024 [video]

#71

Post by coldtea »

runevault wrote: post #57
d_tr wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A first-class programming language (not an LLM) to talk to the computer's OS along with a rich library is the most important missing component IMO. Humans communicate mainly with language and no OS provides this in a satisfactory way for the average user. The result is users mostly clicking on signs to choose among predetermined tasks, like monkeys in a lab.

to my mind at least part of the issue here is human communication languages are fundamentally lossy by nature. Everything has too many meanings and requires inference. This is why when able to communicate with code it gets so much easier because it has to be exactly right or the computer fails. And at least because it is consistent we can debug and fix that communication and once that is done it will work with reason…

That describes a limitation of computers (and current interfaces to them) though.

Requiring humans to describe stuff "unambiguosly" is the easy cop out to that.

Getting computers to handle the ambiguity and resolve it as good as humans is what would be really amplifying. LLMs are a good step to that, compared to a regular programming language/interface.

Re: Alan Kay's talk at UCLA – Feb 2024 [video]

#72

Post by kredd »

coldtea wrote: post #70
boxfire wrote: post #4

The idea of computing as the shared stage to reflect our own intelligence is really what sticks out to me as the best way to frame what interacting with a computer means. It's not new but Alan did a great job of motivating and framing it here. Thanks for posting this great reminder that what we use as computers today are still only poor imitations of what could truly be done if we can transport our minds to be more d…

> The idea of computing as the shared stage to reflect our own intelligence We tried that, and it worked briefly. But the end result is the modern web/app landscape: commercialization, tits and cats, hating, techo-feudal and government control, partisanship bs, spam, narcisism - and rare sprinkles of intelligence here and there.

That’s true, but I think the core of human communication has always been half of what you’ve listed - low intelligence, hating, spam and narcissism. It’s just more obvious and amplified online as you can see everyone engaging with it all at the same time. In pre-internet times, you’d need to be physically present and see maximum a bar-full amount of people doing that.

I’m still very hopeful we will use the tech to help up us with some non-communication related things. Maybe something that’ll even off-ramp people outside the internet world.

Re: Alan Kay's talk at UCLA – Feb 2024 [video]

#73

Post by coldtea »

kredd wrote: post #72
coldtea wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The idea of computing as the shared stage to reflect our own intelligence We tried that, and it worked briefly. But the end result is the modern web/app landscape: commercialization, tits and cats, hating, techo-feudal and government control, partisanship bs, spam, narcisism - and rare sprinkles of intelligence here and there.

That’s true, but I think the core of human communication has always been half of what you’ve listed - low intelligence, hating, spam and narcissism. It’s just more obvious and amplified online as you can see everyone engaging with it all at the same time. In pre-internet times, you’d need to be physically present and see maximum a bar-full amount of people doing that. I’m still very hopeful we will use the tech to he…

>In pre-internet times, you’d need to be physically present

Because of that, the very real possibility of getting a punch in the face if you went over the line also helped curb those behaviors somewhat.

Re: Alan Kay's talk at UCLA – Feb 2024 [video]

#74

Post by vasco »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #12
d_tr wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A first-class programming language (not an LLM) to talk to the computer's OS along with a rich library is the most important missing component IMO. Humans communicate mainly with language and no OS provides this in a satisfactory way for the average user. The result is users mostly clicking on signs to choose among predetermined tasks, like monkeys in a lab.

That's because computers are dumb servants. And that's a good thing, because computer solutions should be task specific. The human has agency and sometimes imagination, and the computer's job is to solve a problem as transparently as possible with as little cognitive load as possible. Human language is optimised for human relationships , not for task-specific problem solving. It's full of subtext, context, and implic…

> And that's a good thing, because computer solutions should be task specific

Why? I enjoyed your comment but I don't follow why this is obvious?

Why should computer solutions be task specific rather than general?

Re: Alan Kay's talk at UCLA – Feb 2024 [video]

#76

Post by teddyh »

coldtea wrote: post #73
kredd wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s true, but I think the core of human communication has always been half of what you’ve listed - low intelligence, hating, spam and narcissism. It’s just more obvious and amplified online as you can see everyone engaging with it all at the same time. In pre-internet times, you’d need to be physically present and see maximum a bar-full amount of people doing that. I’m still very hopeful we will use the tech to he…

> In pre-internet times, you’d need to be physically present Because of that, the very real possibility of getting a punch in the face if you went over the line also helped curb those behaviors somewhat.

A sentiment often expressed, but I find it too close to “An armed society is a polite society” for my comfort.

Re: Alan Kay's talk at UCLA – Feb 2024 [video]

#77

Post by rbanffy »

d_tr wrote: post #11
boxfire wrote: post #4

The idea of computing as the shared stage to reflect our own intelligence is really what sticks out to me as the best way to frame what interacting with a computer means. It's not new but Alan did a great job of motivating and framing it here. Thanks for posting this great reminder that what we use as computers today are still only poor imitations of what could truly be done if we can transport our minds to be more d…

A first-class programming language (not an LLM) to talk to the computer's OS along with a rich library is the most important missing component IMO. Humans communicate mainly with language and no OS provides this in a satisfactory way for the average user. The result is users mostly clicking on signs to choose among predetermined tasks, like monkeys in a lab.

> Humans communicate mainly with language and no OS provides this in a satisfactory way for the average user.

Most humans would have nothing to say to an OS. I am a software engineer and most of the time I function many levels of abstraction away from the OS. Most of my work doesn't even run on the same OS I work in, and when it runs, it talks to an OS that's not even running on an actual computer, but a construct that looks like a computer, but is entirely made up by a hypervisor.

Re: Alan Kay's talk at UCLA – Feb 2024 [video]

#78

Post by rbanffy »

igouy wrote: post #55
angiosperm wrote: post #40

There are sound reasons why no substantial system in common use is coded in Smalltalk. Kay could have spent the decades since his time at PARC figuring out why, and remedying them. One of the reasons is that O-O is just one of several important ways discovered to organize software. Any big enough problem will have places for each. Specialization is for insects.

"Rudolph Technologies Helps Semiconductor Customers Reach Market Faster with Smalltalk-Based ControlWORKS" https://www.cincom.com/pdf/CS050418-1.pdf Someone suggested Smalltalk a million lines long which I have no way to confirm or contradict ;-)

Cincom Systems has been a pioneer of extremely productive programming tools since ever. My first real programming internship was on an IBM 4381 running their Mantis 4GL tool (in 1984-ish).

I like to compare it to Ruby on Rails. Mantis is Ruby on Rails for the 3278 (and Dataflex 2 would be Ruby on Rails for the VT-100).

Re: Alan Kay's talk at UCLA – Feb 2024 [video]

#79

Post by sp332 »

lawrenceyan wrote: post #45

Wow, this guy Vannevar Bush was the definition of being early: > Wholly new forms of encyclopedias will appear, ready-made with a mesh of associative trails running through them, ready to be dropped into the memex and there amplified.

Actually I still don't know of a good way to make a path along several links and share that path with someone else later.
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