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OpenAI and Elon Musk

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Re: OpenAI and Elon Musk

#941

Post by WalterBright »

AmericanChopper wrote: post #552
color_me_not wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, that question was purely rhetorical. That divide between individual and collective as stated above was very sketchy, and I merely wanted to indicate that. If one take the strict definition of individualist and collective from a dictionary (well, which one, to begin with?), of course they are opposite, just looking at the idea conveyed by the word radicals (ie individualist -> individual, vs collective). As alw…

The whole point this thread seems to be missing is the collectivist vs individualist debate that this relates to is about how society is governed. People assembling to address their needs/wants collectively might be collectivist in the broad sense, but it requires individualist governance framework to exist, because under a collective governance framework such freedom of association would not be permitted. Just like…

Collectives are when people share equally in the work and the results.

Re: OpenAI and Elon Musk

#942

Post by WalterBright »

danans wrote: post #940
WalterBright wrote: post #938

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The New Deal was a welfare system. Welfare has never made a country prosperous. The success of free markets has been replicated many times: 1. the US 2. Japan after WW2 3. Germany after WW2 4. Hong Kong 5. China after it abandoned the cultural revolution It has nothing to do with geography. > America is at the top and that can't be replicated It can be replicated. > It might be collectivism! Yet collectivism always f…

> The New Deal was a welfare system. Welfare has never made a country prosperous. > The success of free markets has been replicated many times: > 1. the US > 2. Japan after WW2 > 3. Germany after WW2 > 4. Hong Kong > 5. China after it abandoned the cultural revolution 4 of those 5 countries have significant welfare programs (Japan and Germany being the most generous among those on your list).

> 4 of those 5 countries have significant welfare programs

Welfare does not correspond with prosperity. It's hard to see how paying people to not work contributes to prosperity.

Re: OpenAI and Elon Musk

#943

Post by defrost »

WalterBright wrote: post #942
danans wrote: post #940

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The New Deal was a welfare system. Welfare has never made a country prosperous. > The success of free markets has been replicated many times: > 1. the US > 2. Japan after WW2 > 3. Germany after WW2 > 4. Hong Kong > 5. China after it abandoned the cultural revolution 4 of those 5 countries have significant welfare programs (Japan and Germany being the most generous among those on your list).

> 4 of those 5 countries have significant welfare programs Welfare does not correspond with prosperity. It's hard to see how paying people to not work contributes to prosperity.

Try harder then.

Supporting people who have trouble sourcing an income reduces the amount paid out to offset starving hordes doing whatever it takes to survive et al.

There's a balance.

Re: OpenAI and Elon Musk

#944

Post by meowface »

boringg wrote: post #833
habosa wrote: post #716

Regardless of who is right here, I think the enormous egos at play make OpenAI the last company I’d want to develop AGI. First Sam vs. the board, now Elon vs. everyone … it’s pretty clear this company is not in any way being run for the greater good. It’s all ego and money with some good science trapped underneath.

Serious question. Does anyone trust Sam Altman at all anymore? My perspective from the outside is his public reputation is in tatters except that he's tied to Open AI. Im curious what the internal rep is and the greater community?

Yes. I liked him when he was head of YC, I liked him when he was head of reddit for a few days, I like him now. I've never had any issue with him. When they made a capped-profit portion of OpenAI, they explained their reasoning, and I think it's clear we wouldn't have GPT-4 today (or in the foreseeable future) if they stayed purely non-profit.

Hell, capped-profit is more than you can say for any other tech company.

Re: OpenAI and Elon Musk

#945

Post by meowface »

retinaros wrote: post #914
ben_w wrote: post #880

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, me. At least, I trust him as much as any other foreign[0] CEO. For all the stuff people complain about him doing, almost none of it matters to me, except for the stuff which isn't proven (such as his sister's allegation) where I would change my mind if evidence was presented. What I don't trust is that Californian ethics don't map well enough onto my ethics, which also applies to basically all of Big Tech… …but…

he is a salesman selling midly working snake oil, he was into nft a few year ago and jumped to the new snake oil. everything that elon is claiming now is real. they manipulated opinion and rode open source to train on public open data sources and once they had something they could,market they closed everything. its not up;for debate that is a fact

They were closed source from the start. And he invested in one NFT startup (among many other startups).

Re: OpenAI and Elon Musk

#946

Post by hef19898 »

chankstein38 wrote: post #899
hef19898 wrote: post #827

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You a seriously denying that generative AI is used to create fake images, videos and scam / spam texts? Really?

No. I'm declaring that you either can't read or don't understand that there's a difference between "gen AI" and LLMs. LLMs generate text. They don't generate images. Are you just a troll or not actually reading my messages? The question you're replying to asked about LLMs. I don't understand what's so difficult about this.

One has to love pedants. Your whole point was, LLMs don't create images (don't you say...), hence all the other points are wrong? Now go back to the first comment, assume LLMs and gen AI are used interchangeable (I am too lazy to re-read my initial post). Or don't, I don't care, because I do not argue semantics, tgere is hardly a more lazy, and disengenious, way to discuss. Ben Shapiro is doing that all the time and thinks he's smart.

Re: OpenAI and Elon Musk

#947

Post by hef19898 »

WalterBright wrote: post #936
hef19898 wrote: post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is basically all wrong, except the Ford switching to planes and tanks bit. And you are aware, that France was a major biligerent in WW1, stopped Germany at Verdun and held more than half the Western Front, sucessfully after the race to the sea ended, together with Britain, for years before the US showed up? Or that the Ententene, without significant US participation, won the strategic victory that defeated Germa…

> Just read the first half of FDRs 1945 State of the Union during my lunch break. Not sure how you can consider a national service obligation, in parallel to the normal recruiting of workers, to be equal to forced labour... Forced labor is exactly what it is. "You go work at this job we assigned you or you go to prison" is forced labor. > "friend of Stalin" I didn't write that. It's your strawman. > being impressed b…

You said "admirer of Stalin". And France won WW1, no doubt about that. Saying France lost, well, do you also think the US won in Vietnam?

German soldiers knew the war was over when the Kaiserschlacht failed, before the US showed up. Heck, even before that. Leadership did, too. There were mutinies before 1918, on both sides. The German Navy sailors caused a revolution, without ever seeing a single American. And the likes of Luddendorff and Hindenburg wanted to save face, and waited until a new civil government negotiated the Armistice, so they could later claim Germany was undefeated in the field. Please tell, you din't believe that crappy piece of propaganda...

And no, a national servide mandate, or whatever FDR propsed (a speach is hardly well defuned policy, is it?) is not forced labour... Forced labour is what what the Nazis did for example, with POWs and camp inmates. Also, forced labour is unpaid, not sure where you assume FDR didn't want to pay peoole. After all, the US would never do that, free market and all that, right?

The loss of people has no impact on the height of future generations... Where do you gt that idea from? And while Verdun was a brutal battle, in which Germany had equal losses, it was not the main source of cassualties on the Western Front for either side. Same for the Battle of the Somme.

Seriously, France lost WW1? Small soldiers in the next war are caused by cassualties in previous one? It took well equipped and well fed Americans for German soldiera to realizebit was over?

Re: OpenAI and Elon Musk

#948

Post by friendzis »

lupire wrote: post #600
friendzis wrote: post #548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd argue it stems from the interaction between ad revenue and SEO and the weird and unexpected incentives created in when mixing those 2. Personally, I highly dislike this handwaving of SEO. SEO is not some sinister agenda following secret cult trying to disseminate bullshit. SEO is just... following the rules set forth by search engines, which for quite a long time is effectively singlehandedly Google. Those "wei…

The explosion would be in BS articles about gardening, plus ads for whatever the user's profile says they are susceptible to. SEO is gaming Google's heuristics . Google doest generate a perfect ranking according to Google human's values. SEO gaming is much older than Google. Back when "search" was just an alphabetical listing of everyone in a printed book, we had companies calling themselves "A A Aachen" to get to th…

> SEO is gaming Google's heuristics.

I fail to see immediate disagreement here: I don't see how Google's ranking process/method/algorithm being heuristic changes the observation that to a website in the end it is a set of ranking rules, that can in some ways be gamed. SEO is two part process: discovering those ranking rules and abusing them.

Your example with gaming alphabetical listings only reinforces the idea that SEO abuses rules set forth by the ranking engine.

However, it does not meaningfully matter whether the incentives inherent in the ranking system form results the way they do intentionally. What matters is the eventual behavior of the ranking system. Mostly because by definition you cannot filter out bad actors entirely, all you can do is 1) place some arbitrarily enforced barriers, which are generally prohibitively costly 2) place incentives minimizing gain of bad actors.

Re: OpenAI and Elon Musk

#950

Post by hef19898 »

WalterBright wrote: post #942
danans wrote: post #940

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The New Deal was a welfare system. Welfare has never made a country prosperous. > The success of free markets has been replicated many times: > 1. the US > 2. Japan after WW2 > 3. Germany after WW2 > 4. Hong Kong > 5. China after it abandoned the cultural revolution 4 of those 5 countries have significant welfare programs (Japan and Germany being the most generous among those on your list).

> 4 of those 5 countries have significant welfare programs Welfare does not correspond with prosperity. It's hard to see how paying people to not work contributes to prosperity.

So, you are saying it would be good to have people working? Kind of like, I don't know, propose a programm or policy to very strongly motivate them, for example like a law, to take essentail jobs? I don't know, maybe during wartime to meet production goals?

Just asking, because FDR wanted exactly that in his free market economy only produxing for the war effort to goverment set gials and prices in 1945.

Welfare programs mean that life expectabcy is higher, as is quality of life. The US for examole is loosong on both metrics against Europe and ither parts of the world with solid programs. Germanys ascent to economic hight can be in part be traced back to Soziale Marktwirtschaft, combining very solid welfare and social.programs with a free market economy.

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