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EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

reuters.com

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Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#111

Post by armitron »

riku_iki wrote: post #33
hackandthink wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would have been the first to leave Ukraine. (I dodged the draft in Germany) And I'm fine with all the Ukrainians in Germany who do not want to fight. (and I would welcome Russians who do not want to fight) Ukraine has no good options. Mearsheimer predicts a territorial loss of 40% and no NATO membership for the rest of Ukraine.

> Mearsheimer predicts a territorial loss of 40% and no NATO membership for the rest of Ukraine. many predicted Kyiv will fall in 3 days in 2022.

That would have certainly been a lot better for the hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians that went straight to an early grave.

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#112

Post by simpletone »

TillE wrote: post #4

There was an incredibly stubborn post-Cold War "end of history" complacency in Europe that really should have ended after the annexation of Crimea in 2014. Instead it lasted until the full invasion in 2022. What's been starkly revealed since is that Europe is woefully unprepared to respond to any kind of aggression, and aside from France's nuclear weapons, wholly reliant on America. At some point you have to get seri…

> There was an incredibly stubborn post-Cold War "end of history"

It's hard to tell whether all these comments are part of online propaganda or people regurgitating propaganda they watched on youtube. Like clockwork, the same talking points with the same key words.

> What's been starkly revealed since is that Europe is woefully unprepared to respond to any kind of aggression

Europe is one of the largest arms manufacturers in the world. Maintains the largest armed forces in the world. And is one of the biggest aggressors in the world. Ask the north africans, middle easterners and sub saharan africans, etc.

> wholly reliant on America.

It's either be reliant on america or become our competitor. Besides, what's your point here? That europe wants a nuclear war with russia?

> At some point you have to get serious and live in the real world where threats still exist.

Europe is the threat. It's funny how the war in ukraine is between european military powers and yet you claim europe is unprepared for aggression. Most of europe is part of NATO, the biggest source of violence and aggression in the world.

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#113

Post by riku_iki »

armitron wrote: post #111
riku_iki wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Mearsheimer predicts a territorial loss of 40% and no NATO membership for the rest of Ukraine. many predicted Kyiv will fall in 3 days in 2022.

That would have certainly been a lot better for the hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians that went straight to an early grave.

that's up to them to decide how is better to live and what is better to die for.

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#114

Post by ryathal »

verdverm wrote: post #30
stalfosknight wrote: post #18

Maybe now some of our European friends will start pulling their weight with respect to funding NATO.

This is an outdated statistic. The EU as a whole is spending above the 2% and if you include broader items like railway improvements to facilitate moving US tanks, the number more than doubles. Some EU countries have given more than 2% to Ukraine on top of this The Data on NATO Responsibility Sharing - CSIS https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YihXoQjnYc

You can play games with numbers all you want to make things look less bad, but many of the major EU economies have significantly neglected military spending. Not only is there a huge lack of munitions across the continent, there's a huge lack of ability to make any. Sure the invasion of Ukraine made these countries scramble to start fixing decades of neglect, but the damage has already been done.

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#115

Post by tim333 »

argentier wrote: post #106
tim333 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh BS it's security. Like they are threatened by a small peacefull country next door with a comedian elected as president to join the EU, when they have the largest nuclear arsenal in the world and a dictator skilled in mass murder. >Western historians have calculated that, over the last 400 years of its existence, the Russian Empire expanded at an average rate of 50 square kilometers per day. ( https://www.themoscow…

The Russians were, as they made clear on multiple occasions, threatened by NATO moving into Ukraine and potentially placing missiles close to the Russian heartland.

They lie constantly. Just some excusese to take their empire back.

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#116

Post by hackandthink »

mopsi wrote: post #85
hackandthink wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I lack fighting spirit, don't want to spend money for weapons and I'm not afraid of Russia (live in Germany). There is a lot of fear mongering. Ukraine should make a deal instead of sacrificing people without limits. So many people died, for loosing later. If they wait too long there won't be any deal.

> (live in Germany) East or West? :)

Lived all my live in the West and West Berlin, worked a few years in East Berlin.

But you have a point. East Germans are much more sceptical of supporting the war. They are tired of propaganda.

(it seems to be different in Poland: Sikorski is a crazy war hawk, don't know about ordinary polish people)

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#117

Post by tim333 »

armitron wrote: post #110
tim333 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh BS it's security. Like they are threatened by a small peacefull country next door with a comedian elected as president to join the EU, when they have the largest nuclear arsenal in the world and a dictator skilled in mass murder. >Western historians have calculated that, over the last 400 years of its existence, the Russian Empire expanded at an average rate of 50 square kilometers per day. ( https://www.themoscow…

Are you aware of the Monroe doctrine? Cuban missile crisis? Can you imagine the US reaction if Russia placed missiles in Canada or Mexico? Mearsheimer explains the perceived threat aspect very well: it doesn't matter what YOU, the Americans or any outside observer thinks. What does matter is what the Russians think, and they've made their thinking on having Ukraine be part of NATO very clear.

Russia has bordered two NATO counties for decades. There were no Russia threatening missiles in Ukraine.

Putin is probably genuinely threatened by the prospect of Ukraine being a prosperous democracy and his own people saying why do we have to live under tyrany then, but that's a different thing.

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#118

Post by Wytwwww »

jevoten wrote: post #22
The_Colonel wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That would mean cultivating the mentality that a country is more than just an economic platform Is it just that, or does it perhaps protect also other rights? Is the economic prosperity the only reason one might prefer living in Germany over Russia?

Point taken. But what about in Germany over Canada? Or Italy? Or Spain, or Australia, or the US, or New Zealand, or UK, or Iceland, or Taiwan, or Japan or... there are lots of mostly free countries (so long as you don't engage in the growing category of hate-speech) one can run to, once freed from the concepts of homeland and nation.

Is Italy threatening to nuke or invade Germany because the Germans won't let them annex Austria? I don't think so..

Or are you suggesting that people can just move to another place when their home country gets taken over by fascist imperialists? Because that doesn't really scale that well...

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#119

Post by Wytwwww »

The_Colonel wrote: post #40
jevoten wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Will you move your whole social life with you A small price compared to dying in war. I'm not saying it's the right choice, but if you have no attachment to your country and people beyond it being a comfortable place to live, that's the choice most will make.

Let me present you an alternative. Europe can build up a credible defense capability which will provide a strong deterrence to Russia. In that case you don't have to die in the trenches and you don't have to spend your life running away from the aggressor. Nazi Germany did not invade Switzerland, USSR did not invade Finland (after suffering horrible losses in the Winter war), even though both had their own claims on…

> Nazi Germany did not invade Switzerland, USSR did not invade Finland

To be fair these aren't exactly the most relevant examples. On paper the balance of power economically (and military to a somewhat lesser degree) is certainly on the side of the EU/NATO. It would be relative pretty cheap to invest enough just to deter a second rate country (besides nukes) like Russia.

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#120

Post by Wytwwww »

argentier wrote: post #53
peutetre wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And after you give up on Ukraine what's next? Georgia? Moldova? Estonia? Poland? Lithuania? More? They're all fair game for Russia are they? Russia will find your submissiveness very helpful.

[flagged]

Because they think that some people are still dumb enough to trust Putin/Russia?
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