It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it • Hacker News Board

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#131

Post by ricardobeat » Fri, May 11, 2012, 10:59 PM UTC

nextparadigms wrote: post #120

ricardobeat wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason that Apple does not allow other engines in iOS is simple: it keeps all performance and security issues restricted to a single code base. That's good for users too. Considering that browsers implement the gross of their functionality (rendering + javascript) according to standards, there is no reason to have two different platforms that do exactly the same thing. As long as the standard is not owned by any…

Why wouldn't Microsoft be able to use the same excuse then. There are always advantages and disadvantages. The questions is what is the compromise you're willing to live with? Apple, much like the US Government thinks security trumps everything, including individual liberties, "for their own good".

Indeed they could, I just said that. This lock might force MS to make IE's engine as good as WebKit. I don't see any problem as long as the standards are kept open and the engine doesn't belong to a single entity.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#132

Post by wavephorm » Fri, May 11, 2012, 11:01 PM UTC

bzbarsky wrote: post #103

ajross wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Post-lastly: there's the simple point that Firefox for Windows is an actual product that could be shipped near-immediately. There is no Firefix for iOS, precisely because Apple has never allowed it. I think the broad point is valid though: Apple's platform control is no more morally justified than Microsoft's. And at least in the abstract they deserve equal scorn. But the specifics here are that Windows 8 on ARM won'…

> There is no Firefix for iOS Sure there is. It hasn't been worked on much precisely because Apple wouldn't allow it anyway, but Ted Mielczarek ported Firefox to iOS a while back. See https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=676585 and https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=680878 and https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=681602 and so forth.

Why don't they send that to Cydia?

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#133

Post by wvenable » Fri, May 11, 2012, 11:07 PM UTC

notatoad wrote: post #130

wvenable wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What you're missing here is that Apple bans everyone equally while Microsoft does not. You could not have this more backwards. The fundamental issue that Metro apps cannot write to executable memory pages. This is a fundamental security feature of both WinRT and of iOS. Browsers download code off the Internet JIT compile it to native code and execute it. This is what Firefox needs to do. It's not like Windows 8 is…

>What Mozilla wants is an exception to the normal rules for applications on ARM Windows 8. i think where the frustration is coming from is that windows gave them exactly that exception on x86 windows 8. they created a special class of applications for third party browsers, that can run JIT'd and native code in metro mode. now, with ARM, they've decided to revoke that exception for no apparent reason other than "becau…

It's not quite the same because Windows 8 x86 already lets you run every kind of Win32 application that has ever existed. The door is already wide open. Allowing Firefox to run in Metro mode with more compatibilities than the average Metro app actually changes very little.

It certainly more complicated than "because we can".

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#134

Post by melling » Fri, May 11, 2012, 11:09 PM UTC

mbateman wrote: post #33

cletus wrote: post #25

I wonder how many people throwing opinions around this were "of age" in the early-to-mid 90s and thus remember what an unstoppable behemoth Microsoft was. This was a time when they had 95%+ of the desktop OS share and you basically couldn't run a home computer with Windows. This was the early days of Linux (IIRC in ~1994 I downloaded SLS running Linux 0.99.x onto ~30 floppy drives over a 2400 baud modem!). Macs were…

I do remember MS of the mid 90s and it's aura of invincibility, but in retrospect it sure looks like that aura was illusory (or highly temporary, which is really the same thing). Even apart from the antitrust suits it seems clear in hindsight, partly due to the examples that you mention, that the market was widening beyond MS's reach.

Microsoft still has 90% desktop market share. They still have a very big reach. And this was the attitude that got them into a lot of trouble:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend_and_extinguish

People might not fear Microsoft like they used too, but they still have the knockout punch in them. If you're their competition, never let your guard down with them.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#135

Post by aymeric » Fri, May 11, 2012, 11:16 PM UTC

wavephorm wrote: post #129

cletus wrote: post #25

I wonder how many people throwing opinions around this were "of age" in the early-to-mid 90s and thus remember what an unstoppable behemoth Microsoft was. This was a time when they had 95%+ of the desktop OS share and you basically couldn't run a home computer with Windows. This was the early days of Linux (IIRC in ~1994 I downloaded SLS running Linux 0.99.x onto ~30 floppy drives over a 2400 baud modem!). Macs were…

Microsoft has definitely earned their hatred in both the consumer and development communities. They rode their monopoly as far as they could, and they are going to pay for it very dearly. Literally noone I have met in the past 10 years is developing Windows software anymore. Sure, some people use .Net to develop web applications, but it sure seems that nobody develops Windows-only software. So Microsoft, has already…

I don't want Microsoft to go away: what they are doing with Asp.net MVC is absolutely amazing and is catching up with the Ruby on Rails framework.

Their focus has to switch from software to web and mobile, like everybody else (Apple for example), and I think they are doing it well, late, but well.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#136

Post by rbanffy » Fri, May 11, 2012, 11:17 PM UTC

kprobst wrote: post #123

floomp wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you'll note that I left Linux off that list as I believe it will never be a viable mainstream desktop OS and of course I know it powers Android/ChromeOS Why not? The main issues for Linux in this field are QA of releases, and support from third-party application vendors for a small subset of programs. Those aren't unsolvable problems. Even today Linux may be a superior solution to both OS X and Windows for certain…

Surely you must realize that this is the same argument people have been making for close to 15 years, and not much has changed. So that should answer your question about the OPs point.

The main reason most people use Windows is that Dell, HP, Lenovo, Acer and Toshiba make it incredibly hard to buy a computer without it. Go to HP's site now and see if you can get a notebook with Linux preinstalled.

Most people would be perfectly happy with a Linux machine (I can tell you my mother is) and had hardware manufacturers given even some slight support (instead of building dozens of models seemingly designed to be Linux-proof) it would be much more popular.

The sad truth is that most people are not even aware their computers run an operating system. They believe Windows is an integral part of the machines.

The problem is that we, Linux enthusiasts, never managed to interest Microsoft's 5 most important clients (the aforementioned PC makers) on the full-featured, rock-solid, fast and stable desktop and server environment we were giving away for free.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#137

Post by azakai » Fri, May 11, 2012, 11:45 PM UTC

kprobst wrote: post #124

azakai wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Care to link to them? For example, here is criticism from a top Mozilla dev on iOS's closedness, http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.planning/browse_f... > Bonus points if they've alluded to antitrust law. How can criticism of Apple be related to antitrust law? What monopoly do they have?

> What monopoly do they have? Do they not have what is essentially a monopoly on the tablet space? I'm not up to date on Android tablet market share, but it seems to me that there isn't so much a market for tablets as there is one for iPads. Everything else is pretty much nonexistent. I might be wrong about that, I guess.

http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2012/05/03/amazons-tablet-market...

Apple has 68% of the market. It's in a very powerful position, but it isn't a monopoly.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#138

Post by sauravc » Fri, May 11, 2012, 11:46 PM UTC

shmerl wrote: post #112

sriramk wrote: post #48

My feeling here (ex-MSFT employee, so maybe biased one way or another) is that Mozilla is going after the soft underbelly of Microsoft, because they can . Mozilla is already locked out of iOS and they have failed at getting Apple to budge. If WinRT locks them out, they'll be locked out of two out of the three major tablet platforms (it's a safe assumption that WinRT will get some marketshare at least). Microsoft is a…

> If I were Microsoft, I would hold my ground. You mean to justify such kind of crooked behavior?

No, it means owning the browsing/battery life experience e2e.

Geez! When it comes to issues about Apple or Microsoft (or Ruby), it seems a number of people on HN lack the ability to think objectively. It's quite sad really. It's like watching Republicans and Democrats fight in Congress, or North Carolina banning gay marriage, or Muslims and Christians fighting over God knows what. All these things stem from the inability to put oneself in the other side's shoes. Extremism sucks. Apple isn't 100% evil or saintly and neither is Microsoft.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#139

Post by billpatrianakos » Fri, May 11, 2012, 11:48 PM UTC

cooldeal wrote: post #98

billpatrianakos wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you're missing here is that Apple bans everyone equally while Microsoft does not. What I mean by that is the App Store doesn't discriminate on an individual basis. Apple is generally consistent in their "unfairness". Looking at what Microsoft is doing, their decision to restrict Firefox immediately struck me as an anti-trust monopoly issue. They're not restricting Firefox on the basis of some policy that applies…

>They're not restricting Firefox on the basis of some policy that applies to everyone but singling out one piece of software. >Framing this using Apple and it's policies/practices are an attempt at misdirection. If you take this attempt to play the Apple v. Microsoft card out of the equation and for a moment pretend Apple never banned FF and FF never even tried to get on iOS what you're left with is Microsoft unfairl…

I resent the implication that I'm a troll first off. Secondly, after reading a lot of the responses to what I wrote I feel like I've been vindicated. I have to admit that I was wrong about Microsoft arbitrarily applying policies unfairly. I plead ignorance on that one. I honestly though I knew what I was talking about.

However, I feel like most of these comments just reinforce my point about how this article frames the situation as being a red herring. If I'm not mistaken the main point of the article is that what Microsoft is doing regarding Firefox on ARM is okay. If that's the premise then what Apple does is irrelevant. The question is "are Microsoft's actions in this case monopolistic?". Now because the answer to that question is most likely yes the author has reframed the situation and brought Apple into the mix to stir up guilt in Apple supporters and sympathy from Microsoft fans. Let's say Apple is wrong which is the implication here. If that's true then so is Microsoft. And if we follow that logic then the author is really arguing that Apple should get in trouble too. So is this even about anti-competitive practices or is this just a way to excuse Microsoft's actions and take some of the heat off them? Seems like the latter to me. Like when you're a kid and your sibling gets away with something then you do the same thing and when you get caught your excuse is "well Billy did it too! He should also get in trouble". It's a childish argument. If one company does it and gets away with it it doesn't mean the others should too. Shame on Apple but let's stick to the issue. Like I said, the way it's framed is meant to muddy the issue by playing on people's allegiances. You implied I was a troll. I submit the author himself is a kind of troll.

Apple had their fiasco and it went the way it went. Whether it was right or not is not the issue. Everyone has played into the author's manipulative ploy.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#140

Post by throwaway64 » Fri, May 11, 2012, 11:49 PM UTC

cooldeal wrote: post #107

rbanffy wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The trouble with trying to dismiss an argument with accusations of hypocrisy is that hypocrites can be right Touché! Also, iOS was closed from the start and Microsoft is closing Windows down now because it feels that if it doesn't, it will lose the Win8 ARM market too. And, obviously, Firefox is not the only target - they must be much more worried about Google owning the WOA web space.

>Also, iOS was closed from the start and Microsoft is closing Windows down now... Err what? You do realize that every single program that will run on Windows 7 will run on Windows 8 right? What do you mean by MS is closing Windows now? Also, Windows RT hasn't even started shipping yet, so you can say "Windows RT will be closed from the start". Which will make it equivalent to iOS in that regard.

exactly zero windows applications that exist currently will run under metro/winRT, so by extension, windows ARM.