It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it • Hacker News Board

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#101

Post by bzbarsky » Fri, May 11, 2012, 9:08 PM UTC

wvenable wrote: post #11

A lot of people, including the author of this article, seem to think it's unfair that Mozilla is not giving equal complaint time to both platforms. That's the fundamental issue here. Maybe, all things being equal , that would be a fair complaint but all things are not equal. First of all, the limitations of iOS and app store are well known and retread at least once a month on HN since the site opened. Mozilla certain…

There is an experimental iOS port of Firefox, for what it's worth. It's only technical limitations from Apple's side that prevent it being actually released to users.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#102

Post by chc » Fri, May 11, 2012, 9:10 PM UTC

Someone wrote: post #81

ajross wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't think Apple decided to restrict third party browsers so their browser "can have a leg up?" (Yes, yes, I know the answer will come back "a unified browser is a better user experience". And my response is: why not let the market make that call?) That sounds awfully naive. Apple certainly does protect its turf (c.f. banning Google Voice after approving dozens of VoIP apps) , and to argue otherwise is just sill…

"Yes, yes, I know the answer will come back "a unified browser is a better user experience". And my response is: why not let the market make that call?" Looking at the continuing success of iOS, so far, the market isn't really shouting out loud that not allowing third party browsers is a good thing. Also, I think there is a valid technical argument for not allowing multiple competing libraries on a mobile device: mem…

> Looking at the continuing success of iOS, so far, the market isn't really shouting out loud that not allowing third party browsers is a good thing.

(I'm going to assume you mean bad thing.)

You can't infer that. The iPad is a huge collection of features (both software and hardware) that can only be bought as a whole. The fact that people buy the bundle doesn't mean they like all the features — it just means that the package as a whole is compelling. People don't have any reasonable option to buy a device that's just like an iPad except it supports third-party browsers.

I have bought software that I know to be outright buggy, and I didn't even return it. Does that mean the bugs don't bother me? No, it just means the benefit of the rest of the software is enough to (barely) outweigh the annoyance that the bugs cause.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#103

Post by bzbarsky » Fri, May 11, 2012, 9:11 PM UTC

ajross wrote: post #16

wvenable wrote: post #11

A lot of people, including the author of this article, seem to think it's unfair that Mozilla is not giving equal complaint time to both platforms. That's the fundamental issue here. Maybe, all things being equal , that would be a fair complaint but all things are not equal. First of all, the limitations of iOS and app store are well known and retread at least once a month on HN since the site opened. Mozilla certain…

Post-lastly: there's the simple point that Firefox for Windows is an actual product that could be shipped near-immediately. There is no Firefix for iOS, precisely because Apple has never allowed it. I think the broad point is valid though: Apple's platform control is no more morally justified than Microsoft's. And at least in the abstract they deserve equal scorn. But the specifics here are that Windows 8 on ARM won'…

> There is no Firefix for iOS

Sure there is. It hasn't been worked on much precisely because Apple wouldn't allow it anyway, but Ted Mielczarek ported Firefox to iOS a while back. See https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=676585 and https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=680878 and https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=681602 and so forth.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#104

Post by recoiledsnake » Fri, May 11, 2012, 9:14 PM UTC

rbanffy wrote: post #67

ozten wrote: post #59

(Disclaimers: I work for Mozilla) There is a huge difference between iOS and other platforms. Apple, in legal terms, makes Firefox on iOS impossible. This was not the case with Windows; Microsoft was using covert means to undermine user choice. To make a blanket statement that Mozilla thinks Apple's banning Firefox from iPad and the iPhone is 'not a problem' is wrong and disingenuous. We have active projects around w…

Don't forget iOS is a walled garden since day 1, while Windows used the 3rd party ecosystem to gain relevance on the desktop. Now, with the x86 desktop fading slowly into irrelevance, they are trying to control the environment on what they perceive to be their lifeboat. Without a JIT they ensure IE will be the only usable browser available on the platform. It's like what they did with private APIs available only to M…

>Don't forget iOS is a walled garden since day 1, while Windows used the 3rd party ecosystem to gain relevance on the desktop

So? None, not even one, of the 3rd party programs running on Windows will run on Windows RT, so I fail to see the relevance of that point and Windows RT is on day -180 right now, not even day 1.

>Without a JIT they ensure IE will be the only usable browser available on the platform.

Apple does the exact same thing and you can say the same things about Apple, so I fail to see how Apple is better in this regard.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#105

Post by floomp » Fri, May 11, 2012, 9:15 PM UTC

cletus wrote: post #25

I wonder how many people throwing opinions around this were "of age" in the early-to-mid 90s and thus remember what an unstoppable behemoth Microsoft was. This was a time when they had 95%+ of the desktop OS share and you basically couldn't run a home computer with Windows. This was the early days of Linux (IIRC in ~1994 I downloaded SLS running Linux 0.99.x onto ~30 floppy drives over a 2400 baud modem!). Macs were…

> you'll note that I left Linux off that list as I believe it will never be a viable mainstream desktop OS and of course I know it powers Android/ChromeOS

Why not? The main issues for Linux in this field are QA of releases, and support from third-party application vendors for a small subset of programs. Those aren't unsolvable problems. Even today Linux may be a superior solution to both OS X and Windows for certain people, especially people who lack attachment to a specific OS (i.e., newbies rather than power users).

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#106

Post by stan_rogers » Fri, May 11, 2012, 9:17 PM UTC

jack-r-abbit wrote: post #70

TimGebhardt wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not banning it. They're just not allowing access to critical API functions for a JIT engine to Windows Marketplace apps. Only IE has access to it. Without these APIs then Firefox will run like a dog because it'll undue all the years that people have been working on optimizing Javascript engines.

Right. So... I don't ban anyone from my swimming pool... everyone is welcome. But if you're not family, you have to wear this 100lb ankle weight. Dive right in everybody! lol

A more apt analogy would be to require everybody to wear a life jacket and a bike helmet. You can do whatever you want, as long as it's safe.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#107

Post by cooldeal » Fri, May 11, 2012, 9:19 PM UTC

rbanffy wrote: post #64

koeselitz wrote: post #29

This is a bit silly. So the point of this article is that Mozilla "should be criticizing Apple?" Why waste a whole article saying someone else should criticize Apple? It seems more worthwhile to do it oneself. The trouble with trying to dismiss an argument with accusations of hypocrisy is that hypocrites can be right . If I make an argument that stealing is wrong and then turn around and steal something, that doesn't…

> The trouble with trying to dismiss an argument with accusations of hypocrisy is that hypocrites can be right Touché! Also, iOS was closed from the start and Microsoft is closing Windows down now because it feels that if it doesn't, it will lose the Win8 ARM market too. And, obviously, Firefox is not the only target - they must be much more worried about Google owning the WOA web space.

>Also, iOS was closed from the start and Microsoft is closing Windows down now...

Err what? You do realize that every single program that will run on Windows 7 will run on Windows 8 right? What do you mean by MS is closing Windows now?

Also, Windows RT hasn't even started shipping yet, so you can say "Windows RT will be closed from the start". Which will make it equivalent to iOS in that regard.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#108

Post by danielrm26 » Fri, May 11, 2012, 9:22 PM UTC

Perhaps Apple does it for quality purposes, while Microsoft does it to avoid competition.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#109

Post by ricardobeat » Fri, May 11, 2012, 9:23 PM UTC

wvenable wrote: post #11

A lot of people, including the author of this article, seem to think it's unfair that Mozilla is not giving equal complaint time to both platforms. That's the fundamental issue here. Maybe, all things being equal , that would be a fair complaint but all things are not equal. First of all, the limitations of iOS and app store are well known and retread at least once a month on HN since the site opened. Mozilla certain…

The reason that Apple does not allow other engines in iOS is simple: it keeps all performance and security issues restricted to a single code base. That's good for users too. Considering that browsers implement the gross of their functionality (rendering + javascript) according to standards, there is no reason to have two different platforms that do exactly the same thing. As long as the standard is not owned by any private individuals, this is beneficial, and the same would apply to Windows tablets.

That said, leaving everything on the hands of Internet Explorer scares me, so maybe this fight should be supported :)

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#110

Post by recoiledsnake » Fri, May 11, 2012, 9:28 PM UTC

rbanffy wrote: post #76

azakai wrote: post #22

Best guess, the author is intentionally being dense and stirring up controversy for clicks. Yes, iOS and Windows RT are similar in some ways. The main difference is that Windows RT is a version of Windows, an OS that is a monopoly in its area. Extending a monopoly to other areas is different than a totally new product. Note that Microsoft is using the dominant position of Windows to further Windows RT, for example by…

> give Microsoft more leeway given it is fighting an uphill battle in the tablet space So, if we make it really hard to rob a bank, we should be OK with someone robbing one. The fact it's an uphill battle does not make it less an abuse of monopoly to extend it into other markets than it would be if they managed to see this opportunity before others (or not failed miserably to execute on it, over and over again). It's…

I think what OP meant was that Microsoft should not be hobbled with deadweights compared to, lets say a startup competing in the tablet market. I don't believe he was talking about special incentives.

Competition is almost always good, especially seeing that Android tablets are hardly making any traction and even Kindle Fire sales dropped like a rock this quarter.