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It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

blogs.computerworld.com

21–30 of 234 posts

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#21

Windows 8 is the natural successor to Win7 and XP. It's the next version of the most popular desktop OS in the world. As with Windows 7 and OSX, it should run whatever the hell the machine's owner wants it to. iOS is a locked-down, consistent, homogeneous user experience on specialty devices that should not be and are not marketed as replacements for computers. Apple Store employees will specifically advise against p…

That doesn't mean you should lockdown all the browser apps just to ensure your control. Both iOS and WP8 allow all sorts of apps to be run. Then why not another browser?

AAPL's insistence for banning flash was justified. Flash has always been memory hog and battery killer but not allowing non-webkit browsers is foolish.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#22
Best guess, the author is intentionally being dense and stirring up controversy for clicks.

Yes, iOS and Windows RT are similar in some ways. The main difference is that Windows RT is a version of Windows, an OS that is a monopoly in its area. Extending a monopoly to other areas is different than a totally new product. Note that Microsoft is using the dominant position of Windows to further Windows RT, for example by having Office on it and various syncing stuff.

Yes, there are grey areas, and all of this is debatable. It does make sense to give Microsoft more leeway given it is fighting an uphill battle in the tablet space. But the article seems to ignore all of that.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#23
post #16

A lot of people, including the author of this article, seem to think it's unfair that Mozilla is not giving equal complaint time to both platforms. That's the fundamental issue here. Maybe, all things being equal , that would be a fair complaint but all things are not equal. First of all, the limitations of iOS and app store are well known and retread at least once a month on HN since the site opened. Mozilla certain…

Post-lastly: there's the simple point that Firefox for Windows is an actual product that could be shipped near-immediately. There is no Firefix for iOS, precisely because Apple has never allowed it. I think the broad point is valid though: Apple's platform control is no more morally justified than Microsoft's. And at least in the abstract they deserve equal scorn. But the specifics here are that Windows 8 on ARM won'…

To the people who say "Where's the moral outrage" about Apple, I have to wonder if they haven't been paying attention for the last 4 years. Lots of people and organizations have led the charge against Apple.

It seems the only organization actively complaining about the limitations of Windows 8 right now is Mozilla. In terms of equal scorn, Microsoft hasn't gotten much scorn at all.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#24
post #6

FF's entire existence is based on a hate of Microsoft, so it only makes sense. That's why they're taking it up the butt from Google Chrome, Mozilla does not know how to deal with them. Nor do they particularly care that much about it, it seems (other than switching to increasing the version number every 2 months).

> FF's entire existence is based on a hate of Microsoft As a student of history I'm sure you are aware that Mozilla (the name and the code base) predated Internet Explorer. I think you meant to say that Internet Explorer's only reason for existing was that Microsoft feared Netscape.

I stand corrected, thanks. Read up on the actual history of the browser. Thought today was going to be a day I did not learn something :-)

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#25
I wonder how many people throwing opinions around this were "of age" in the early-to-mid 90s and thus remember what an unstoppable behemoth Microsoft was.

This was a time when they had 95%+ of the desktop OS share and you basically couldn't run a home computer with Windows. This was the early days of Linux (IIRC in ~1994 I downloaded SLS running Linux 0.99.x onto ~30 floppy drives over a 2400 baud modem!). Macs were an expensive niche product. Personal computing just wasn't possible without Microsoft.

Microsoft very much used this position to kill Netscape as they saw the Internet as an existential threat (fearing Netscape would be the new OS). They tried to subvert Java (the threat of "write once run anywhere" being a threat to the Windows lock-in) and partially succeeded. It was at this time that the DoJ stepped in.

I can't overemphasize the perception the tech community had of Microsoft then. Windows was rapidly evolving. Windows 95 was, I believe, a major turning point for the company (and where it achieved at least technical superiority over MacOS having preemptive multitasking and dynamic memory management). Microsoft really had an aura of invincibility.

We are not in this situation today. Apple seems unable to do no wrong (in the marketplace; there are what are still fringe elements criticizing them for any number of things) but don't have the market position Microsoft did.

In fact, Microsoft doesn't have the position Microsoft did in the 90s. At this point I believe we have viable alternatives to personal computing between mobile devices, Macs (you can get a Mac Mini for $600), netbooks and--dare I say it--even Chromebooks (you'll note that I left Linux off that list as I believe it will never be a viable mainstream desktop OS and of course I know it powers Android/ChromeOS).

I certainly don't see an issue (yet) with Apple blocking alternative browsers. Don't like it? Buy an Android. Or a Windows Phone 7. Or a Blackberry (OK, I couldn't keep a straight face with that last one).

Windows and Office are the geese that lay the golden eggs in Microsoft. Everything is beholden to them. As an organization, Microsoft seems terrified they'll die and as we've seen time and time again it's that fear and that switch from innovation to defending your turf that ultimately leads to the death of companies.

I believe the whole Metro API browser thing is just more evidence of Microsoft's stagnation. Let them I say. It'll probably, at least in some small way, hasten either their demise or them attempting to turn the boat around before they go off the cliff.

EDIT: yes Netscape was complicit in its own destruction. I used Netscape up until version 3. By Netscape 4 on a 486DX4/100 at least, IE4 was significantly better and faster and I never switched back (not until Firefox 1.5/2 years later).

Netscape eroded at both ends (IMHO). At one end obviously was Microsoft giving away the equivalent to their consumer product for free (as well as bundling it with the OS, making it harder to use non-IE browsers and so on). At the other end was actually Apache. The Apache Webserver I believe it incredibly difficult to build their server software platform (anyone else remember Netscape's Web servers?).

It wasn't until the rise of search engine advertising some years later that Microsoft's hold could be broken, it being the only thing that makes Firefox and Chrome possible.

As an aside to all those who are anti-ads: how exactly would non-OS browsers exist without advertising?

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#27

Considering that Apple hasn't been legally ruled to be an illegal monopoly and Microsoft has, the faux-righteous-indignation in the headline completely backfires.

Microsoft had an illegal monopoly on x86 powered desktop computers. There's a reason why only the ARM version of the exact same OS is locked down.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#28
post #26

Has MSFT given any justification on why they are banning Firefox from Windows 8? And why iOS doesn't allow FF too?

I think that one of the guidelines when developing iOS apps is that if you are building a browser you must use WebKit/UIWebView.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#29
This is a bit silly. So the point of this article is that Mozilla "should be criticizing Apple?" Why waste a whole article saying someone else should criticize Apple? It seems more worthwhile to do it oneself.

The trouble with trying to dismiss an argument with accusations of hypocrisy is that hypocrites can be right. If I make an argument that stealing is wrong and then turn around and steal something, that doesn't mean that stealing is morally permissible. Likewise, the fact that Mozilla neglects to criticize Apple doesn't mean their criticism of Microsoft is incorrect.

Re: It's OK for Apple to block Firefox, but wrong when Microsoft does it

#30
post #20

Windows 8 is the natural successor to Win7 and XP. It's the next version of the most popular desktop OS in the world. As with Windows 7 and OSX, it should run whatever the hell the machine's owner wants it to. iOS is a locked-down, consistent, homogeneous user experience on specialty devices that should not be and are not marketed as replacements for computers. Apple Store employees will specifically advise against p…

WinRT is to Windows 8, as iOS is to OS X.

And so it begins... I believe you mean Windows RT [1] and not WinRT [2]. Both x86 and ARM processors can use WinRT (metro interface) however Windows RT is the flavour of windows that only runs on ARM processors and only supports third party apps using WinRT [3].

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_RT [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Runtime [3] http://www.i-programmer.info/news/177-windows-8/4079-three-w...

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