Nvidia bans using translation layers for CUDA software to run on other chips • Hacker News Board

Re: Nvidia bans using translation layers for CUDA software to run on other chips

#21

Post by lunfard000 » Mon, Mar 04, 2024, 5:41 PM UTC

plussed_reader wrote: post #16

SomeHacker44 wrote: post #9

IANAL, but I don't see how this can be enforced (in the US) given the legal history of emulation. This is effectively just emulation. c.f., https://emulation.gametechwiki.com/index.php/Licensing

An arms race of the update whack-a-mole as the encrypted blob grows and encompasses more...

wouldn't that require breaking the ABI? Many enterprise wont be happy if they do so. Also, there is not way to prevent using old cuda compilers.

Re: Nvidia bans using translation layers for CUDA software to run on other chips

#22

Post by paulryanrogers » Mon, Mar 04, 2024, 5:42 PM UTC

SomeHacker44 wrote: post #9

IANAL, but I don't see how this can be enforced (in the US) given the legal history of emulation. This is effectively just emulation. c.f., https://emulation.gametechwiki.com/index.php/Licensing

APIs aren't subject to copyright. So unless CUDA is more than an API they're just going to make some lawyers rich and waste everyone's time.

Re: Nvidia bans using translation layers for CUDA software to run on other chips

#23

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Mar 04, 2024, 5:42 PM UTC

jsheard wrote: post #19

SomeHacker44 wrote: post #9

IANAL, but I don't see how this can be enforced (in the US) given the legal history of emulation. This is effectively just emulation. c.f., https://emulation.gametechwiki.com/index.php/Licensing

I think there's two issues at play: re-implementing the CUDA APIs, and using that re-implementation to run Nvidias own libraries like cuDNN on non-Nvidia hardware. Precedent around emulation and the Google vs. Oracle case probably protects the former, but Nvidia is probably entitled to say how you're allowed to use their own software in the latter.

[deleted]

Re: Nvidia bans using translation layers for CUDA software to run on other chips

#24

Post by solardev » Mon, Mar 04, 2024, 5:42 PM UTC

moffkalast wrote: post #18

jstanley wrote: post #4

People keep using proprietary software and keep getting burned by it. When will we learn?

Hopefully Vulkan eventually gets a headless compute kernel version.

Could WebGPU fill that need?

Re: Nvidia bans using translation layers for CUDA software to run on other chips

#25

Post by tamimio » Mon, Mar 04, 2024, 5:45 PM UTC

I don’t think Nvidia can enforce this in the US let alone China.

Re: Nvidia bans using translation layers for CUDA software to run on other chips

#26

Post by lunfard000 » Mon, Mar 04, 2024, 5:45 PM UTC

marklar423 wrote: post #20

SomeHacker44 wrote: post #9

IANAL, but I don't see how this can be enforced (in the US) given the legal history of emulation. This is effectively just emulation. c.f., https://emulation.gametechwiki.com/index.php/Licensing

I think they're trying to do the trick where they don't ban the emulation per se, but they make it a violation of the license to disassemble the code to understand how it works. Then they go after emulating projects for copyright infringement, since they must have violated copyright to get a compatible version running. It's a dirty trick IMO, but it has seen some mixed success.

I dont think China cares too much about what NVIDIA thinks considering the ban in place.

Re: Nvidia bans using translation layers for CUDA software to run on other chips

#27

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Mar 04, 2024, 5:45 PM UTC

hagbard_c wrote: post #14

Nvidia can go bite my shiny metal ass as far as I'm concerned. Hey, European Commission, once you're done taking 0.5% of the fruit factory's yearly income for their gate keeping tendencies here's another juicy company for you to investigate.

[deleted]

Re: Nvidia bans using translation layers for CUDA software to run on other chips

#28

Post by jsheard » Mon, Mar 04, 2024, 5:46 PM UTC

paulryanrogers wrote: post #22

SomeHacker44 wrote: post #9

IANAL, but I don't see how this can be enforced (in the US) given the legal history of emulation. This is effectively just emulation. c.f., https://emulation.gametechwiki.com/index.php/Licensing

APIs aren't subject to copyright. So unless CUDA is more than an API they're just going to make some lawyers rich and waste everyone's time.

The API may not be copyrightable, but the widely-used official libraries (cuDNN, cuBLAS, OptiX, etc) are, so in practice I think they can at least say that anything which uses those libraries can't be run on competitors hardware.

Re: Nvidia bans using translation layers for CUDA software to run on other chips

#29

Post by Karellen » Mon, Mar 04, 2024, 5:46 PM UTC

jstanley wrote: post #4

People keep using proprietary software and keep getting burned by it. When will we learn?

If people were going to learn not to use proprietary software/hardware like the stuff that the wankers at Nvidia churn out, they'd have learned it over a decade ago when Torvalds gave them a big "fuck you" - which had been a long time coming even back then.

People who keep picking Nvidia don't want to learn not to use proprietary tools.

Re: Nvidia bans using translation layers for CUDA software to run on other chips

#30

Post by mandarax8 » Mon, Mar 04, 2024, 5:50 PM UTC

moffkalast wrote: post #18

jstanley wrote: post #4

People keep using proprietary software and keep getting burned by it. When will we learn?

Hopefully Vulkan eventually gets a headless compute kernel version.

You can already do compute without creating a swap chain or presenting right?