Nvidia bans using translation layers for CUDA software to run on other chips • Hacker News Board

Re: Nvidia bans using translation layers for CUDA software to run on other chips

#11

Post by jjice » Mon, Mar 04, 2024, 5:29 PM UTC

nottorp wrote: post #7

justinclift wrote: post #2

On the face of it, this sounds like abusive behaviour by a monopolist. Wonder if it'll be seen that way legally though?

For the US, didn't Oracle win the java api lawsuit?

Looks like they lost [0], with Google winning 6-2, but maybe Oracle is trying to appeal it? I'm not familiar with the remanding process so I can't comment on that part of this quote.

> In April 2021, the Supreme Court ruled in a 6–2 decision that Google's use of the Java APIs fell within the four factors of fair use, bypassing the question on the copyrightability of the APIs. The decision reversed the Federal Circuit ruling and remanded the case for further review.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_LLC_v._Oracle_America%2....

Re: Nvidia bans using translation layers for CUDA software to run on other chips

#12

Post by foobarian » Mon, Mar 04, 2024, 5:31 PM UTC

mindcrime wrote: post #3

Ironically, this is just going to increase interest in ROCm and other alternatives.

Wonder if they know and expect that. It's brilliant! Maybe AMD should announce a ban on developing CUDA compatibility layers for their kit

Re: Nvidia bans using translation layers for CUDA software to run on other chips

#13

Post by jvanderbot » Mon, Mar 04, 2024, 5:31 PM UTC

andersa wrote: post #8

jstanley wrote: post #4

People keep using proprietary software and keep getting burned by it. When will we learn?

There are no viable alternatives if you require high performance or even just the software to actually work properly.

Yes - this is a competition problem. If there were viable alternatives, then interoperability wouldn't be something we really talk about. Instead it'd be abstraction layers to run on the chip-specific runtimes. And then it's just CUDA trying to "beat" the alternative.

Re: Nvidia bans using translation layers for CUDA software to run on other chips

#14

Post by hagbard_c » Mon, Mar 04, 2024, 5:33 PM UTC

Nvidia can go bite my shiny metal ass as far as I'm concerned. Hey, European Commission, once you're done taking 0.5% of the fruit factory's yearly income for their gate keeping tendencies here's another juicy company for you to investigate.

Re: Nvidia bans using translation layers for CUDA software to run on other chips

#15

Post by salawat » Mon, Mar 04, 2024, 5:34 PM UTC

Sounds anti-competitive af. How has this not bubbled up to the FTC for anti-trust action yet?

Re: Nvidia bans using translation layers for CUDA software to run on other chips

#16

Post by plussed_reader » Mon, Mar 04, 2024, 5:34 PM UTC

SomeHacker44 wrote: post #9

IANAL, but I don't see how this can be enforced (in the US) given the legal history of emulation. This is effectively just emulation. c.f., https://emulation.gametechwiki.com/index.php/Licensing

An arms race of the update whack-a-mole as the encrypted blob grows and encompasses more...

Re: Nvidia bans using translation layers for CUDA software to run on other chips

#17

Post by ronsor » Mon, Mar 04, 2024, 5:36 PM UTC

salawat wrote: post #15

Sounds anti-competitive af. How has this not bubbled up to the FTC for anti-trust action yet?

You can always report it to the FTC yourself, or Nvidia's competitors can sue them for antitrust violations.

Re: Nvidia bans using translation layers for CUDA software to run on other chips

#18

Post by moffkalast » Mon, Mar 04, 2024, 5:37 PM UTC

jstanley wrote: post #4

People keep using proprietary software and keep getting burned by it. When will we learn?

Hopefully Vulkan eventually gets a headless compute kernel version.

Re: Nvidia bans using translation layers for CUDA software to run on other chips

#19

Post by jsheard » Mon, Mar 04, 2024, 5:37 PM UTC

SomeHacker44 wrote: post #9

IANAL, but I don't see how this can be enforced (in the US) given the legal history of emulation. This is effectively just emulation. c.f., https://emulation.gametechwiki.com/index.php/Licensing

I think there's two issues at play: re-implementing the CUDA APIs, and using that re-implementation to run Nvidias own libraries like cuDNN on non-Nvidia hardware. Precedent around emulation and the Google vs. Oracle case probably protects the former, but Nvidia is probably entitled to say how you're allowed to use their own software in the latter.

Re: Nvidia bans using translation layers for CUDA software to run on other chips

#20

Post by marklar423 » Mon, Mar 04, 2024, 5:40 PM UTC

SomeHacker44 wrote: post #9

IANAL, but I don't see how this can be enforced (in the US) given the legal history of emulation. This is effectively just emulation. c.f., https://emulation.gametechwiki.com/index.php/Licensing

I think they're trying to do the trick where they don't ban the emulation per se, but they make it a violation of the license to disassemble the code to understand how it works. Then they go after emulating projects for copyright infringement, since they must have violated copyright to get a compatible version running.

It's a dirty trick IMO, but it has seen some mixed success.