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How to be a good listener

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Re: How to be a good listener

#111

Post by mvkel »

sooheon wrote: post #88
CipherThrowaway wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, I find 2 and 3 to be creepy and robotic. 3 also feels intrusive. The conscious analysis of tone and body language is obviously important for many people to get by socially, especially for neurodiverse people or people outside the norm of the situation. However, I think it is important to avoid remarking directly on body language. You can still let these non-verbal observations guide a conversation, of cou…

Level 4 is noticing the same things as 3 but not calling attention to it so conspicuously and presumptuously.

That would still be listening level 1. If you're asking questions and worried about how it makes you look, that's focusing on yourself.

My examples don't come across good via text; I would edit more fleshed out ones if I could.

But in any context, if you're focused on yourself, you're not listening.

Re: How to be a good listener

#112

Post by kelseyfrog »

unsupp0rted wrote: post #73
nicbou wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got better at listening, and more curious in general. I've met a lot of strangers recently as I am travelling. I sometimes sit with people for hours, learn everything about their lives, and never get to say what I do for a living. Never a single "and you?" I notice it happening at home too. Sometimes you'll talk with a friend for 30+ minutes, then think "I'm fine too, thanks for asking". I was lucky to meet good li…

I've been on several dates like this. The other person talks about themselves for 30 ~ 90 minutes, exclusively, depending on how charitable I'm feeling that day. They don't ask me any questions about me at all. Like, not even one. I ask myself if it's because they're like that on any date with any person, or because they realized at first sight they weren't interested in me, so it doesn't matter to them if they learn…

There is a friend in my life who I meet with regularly in a small group setting that falls into this category - never seeming to reciprocate.

When I imagine asking him, "What don't you ask questions about my life?" I assume I'd get a response something like, "You can tell me anything," or "I'm open to hearing what you want to talk about," or "You're free to talk about anything."

If I had to devise a quick mental model, it might seem like the difference between talking at someone vs talking with someone? I might have to think about that a bit more. Do you have any insight here?

Re: How to be a good listener

#114

Post by greenhearth »

elevaet wrote: post #14

> 5. Don’t relate. I see this recommendation all the time, but I know I do it all the time, and personally I often _like_ it when other people do it to me. Sometimes it's nice to commiserate or share a connection on a similar experience, and maybe even learn from what the other person already went through. Does anyone else question this common piece of advice? Can't relating be useful if it's not being used to steer…

I hate it. It just feels like a one-up attempt. Keep your shit to yourself, this is not a competition.

Re: How to be a good listener

#115

Post by kelseyfrog »

spidersenses wrote: post #29
kelseyfrog wrote: post #7

As someone who went out of their way and studied being a good listener, none of these are wrong, but I don't see it as being the best way of learning how to be a good listener. Reading about how to be a good listener can only get someone so far - watching someone demonstrate it and talking about it is the surest way to understand what it means. Specifically, Reflective listening[1], Clean language[2], and the approac…

>worded in their own language Would you (or someone else that's knowledgable) be so kind to share your approach to doing this? I find this to be hardest thing to do in the moment without feeling like a manipulative sociopath.

That's going to fall under clean language. There are some written examples on the aforementioned Clean Language wikipedia article[1] under the examples section.

The point I take away from it is the following question, "Who's doing the framing here?" If you're supporting the other person in framing things themselves, then it leans toward clean language. If you're interjecting your own framing, then it leans away from clean language. Personally, I struggle the most with trying to avoid labeling something as "good" or "bad" for the other person. They're full human beings with their own ability to decide how they feel about something and the best way, in my experience, to decide how you feel about something is to put it into words and notice the feelings that come up as the words are said.

If someone is interjecting their own takes, it gets in the way of that noticing.

I'm really curious what you think about manipulation when you envision yourself listening this way.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_language#Example

Re: How to be a good listener

#116

Post by germandiago »

squigz wrote: post #40
germandiago wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In order to listen to fix first you must understand... I mean that the kind of "I hear you", "yes, blabla" seems nice but it is the same thing anyone would tell you. Someone that does not know you maybe would react the same. For me it is better (as in valuable) to get a: "because you fail to see you are doing it wrong? Don't you see that..." or something that tells you why you are being dumb and you should not be sad…

> In order to listen to fix first you must understand... You're missing the point - it's about whether you should "listen to fix" at all. In my experience, when most people are "sharing", they don't want you to solve their problems - chances are they know everything you're about to say anyway - and if they did, they'll more specifically ask for your help What people want is just someone to listen, to feel heard . Thi…

True, they might know, but a push is probably what they need.

Listening is disjoint from giving advice. In fact you need to first listen to be able to give advice.

And yes, some people just want to be listened. I am not against it as such

I usually talk actionable stuff more than not actually but I understand that some people might not be like me.

Yes, my last quote there means that making someone feel just better for a moment while keeping something for which there could be something about is probably suboptimal. Idk if bad, just suboptimal. The honest feedback in a conversation is critical to solve our own problems.

Sometimes I found out things noone would have ever told me by people that really appreciate me and that is a good thing that improves me, not a bad thing that should make me angry or annoyed.

I have the feeling that we are doing something wrong with this kind of advice. The generation that comes 20 years after me or 30 (I am 40) are mentally way softer than before and I think this kind of behavior promoted by the article promotes this kind of feedback.

The biggest difference I have seen compared to Europe from living in Vietnam (for 12 years) is that they have a much stronger mind.

They have better and worse things, as every culture. But I relate this kind of advice as a fundamental mistake.

We need positive listening, we need things like that, sure. But we also need to deal with frustration, with failure and with negative feedback.

Those things teach us to deal with fristration, to naturalize it and to be able to deal with it as well.

So my advice would be more, without being a therapist, train your kids as Toni Nadal trained Rafa Nadal. Hard minds are ready for good and bad times.

Soft minds only for the good ones.

So I would be wary of promoting that kind of "everything's cool let's be positive never mind". I'd rather promote "be careful, this is the problem, can we deal with it?" If so, how? If not, we cannot win all the time which is also a lesson that humbles us.

Re: How to be a good listener

#117

Post by greenie_beans »

CipherThrowaway wrote: post #109
greenie_beans wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy

It's worth reading the paragraph on BPD in that page. Being conditioned by your BPD partner to excessively validate and center them is not the same as empathy.

i read it and i'm not sure the point you're trying to make? that section is about empathy from the POV of the person with BPD, not about empathetically listening to somebody with BPD

edit: it appears we're talking past each other. i like this piece of writing and you don't. that's fine. do you have any suggestions for me to read about how to listen, written by one of your favorite writers or poets? this will help me better understand how to listen to you.

Re: How to be a good listener

#118

Post by geysersam »

lmz wrote: post #61
geysersam wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would they get more done? Suicide seems like the ultimate method to not get shit done

I guess that depends whether they do it on the way up or on the way down w.r.t. productivity. If people offed themselves before they became a burden on others that might be a positive for society.

Depends on how you measure 'positive for society'. Some might count people not feeling so bad they're killing themselves in that column.

Re: How to be a good listener

#119

Post by CipherThrowaway »

StefanBatory wrote: post #101
CipherThrowaway wrote: post #48

I'm no expert on listening, but I think do have a sense of when I personally feel heard. I don't agree with this piece at all, and I don't like the vibe of the author. The very first paragraph has a narcissism in it that rubs me the wrong way. Like the whole world let her down for not centering her in conversations the way her therapist caretaker did. > Some simple and powerful phrases to use when someone is feeling…

"Replace all of the shocking, mean, hateful, incorrect, ignorant, offensive, cruel things coming out of this person’s mouth with “I’m hurt! I’m hurt! I’m hurt! I’m hurt. I’m hurrrrt.” This is narcissistic logic. When people are angry at you, and attacking you - and they do not have a clinical mood or personality disorder - you must accept that there may be a reason behind it. Things said in the heat of the moment are…

I agree with you here. Your example is an abuse scenario. In that case the hurt is the point, there isn't really meaning to it, and it really sucks that it happened to you.

The thing that gives me such a bad vibe from the OP is that this type of behavior is presented as normal in a listening scenario to such an extent that learning to dismiss it is a core listening skill. I think she was either abusive towards the people she expected to listen to her, or the BPD/NPD hypersensitivity to criticism caused her to habitually mistake feedback and boundary setting as cruel and hateful attacks.

Either way, the model of human relationships presented in the OP is completely dysfunctional. It deeply pains me to see it presented as advice.

Re: How to be a good listener

#120

Post by squigz »

germandiago wrote: post #116
squigz wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In order to listen to fix first you must understand... You're missing the point - it's about whether you should "listen to fix" at all. In my experience, when most people are "sharing", they don't want you to solve their problems - chances are they know everything you're about to say anyway - and if they did, they'll more specifically ask for your help What people want is just someone to listen, to feel heard . Thi…

True, they might know, but a push is probably what they need. Listening is disjoint from giving advice. In fact you need to first listen to be able to give advice. And yes, some people just want to be listened. I am not against it as such I usually talk actionable stuff more than not actually but I understand that some people might not be like me. Yes, my last quote there means that making someone feel just better fo…

In my experience, the younger generations deal with their problems a lot more productively than the older generations.
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