If you work a lot - you drink a lot (from my experience it sometimes a really helpful stress relief)
Why do east Asian firms value drinking?
161–170 of 190 posts
Re: Why do east Asian firms value drinking?
#162Earlier quoted context omitted.
Strange but true: I've been to a number of professional happy hours that offered free alcohol, but didn't provide other beverages. It got to the point that I started bringing my own water bottle to networking events, just in case. I'm a big fan of providing other beverage types. Being able to sip a soda etc from the same kind of container as everyone else goes a long way towards blending in.
>Strange but true: I've been to a number of professional happy hours that offered free alcohol, but didn't provide other beverages. Failing to provide non-alcoholic drinks would be a faux pas even in Germany. It is indeed strange. I'd go as far as calling it worse than college-party-level planning. Is nobody expected to drive home after the event?
At networking mixers I've attended, often there are a limited number of drink tickets per person and a set event duration. But the drink tickets only covered alcohol, not other beverages. In some cases, other beverages just weren't an option at all. ("I guess you could find a water fountain? But why?")
Also, one of those recurring events was hosted at a startup that was, to be frank, known for "worse than college" level planning all around...
Eventually events started getting better at providing options. Probably a mix of several factors: the move to another city (local culture), career growth/level of people around me, and changing social patterns. (increasing interest in non alcoholic options/ more people willing to speak up)
Re: Why do east Asian firms value drinking?
#163If you work a lot - you drink a lot (from my experience it sometimes a really helpful stress relief)
Is it helpful though?
Re: Why do east Asian firms value drinking?
#164> The Dutch and Israelis are famously direct. They don’t mind confrontation, so usually speak their mind and take no offence. By contrast, East Asians are more likely to value collective harmony. This means that they avoid direct confrontation, so artfully use be more subtle and diplomatic language. I don't see how speaking your mind is confrontational or at odds with "collective harmony". Intention is all that matte…
It matters as in each culture the communication style is interpreted in some way, but not necessarily your way. I lived a while in the Middle East and being very direct was considered to be rude; it may be not rude at all for a Dutch, but it is for a Saudi. People don't really understand diversity. Instead of understanding that diversity of cultures means different cultures view the world in different ways and in som…
I'm what you might call "multi-cultural". I've lived in a few different cultures for significant lengths of time, and co-incidentally, am middle-eastern.
At the risk of sounding arrogant, I think that qualifies me to make this statement more than some: I think there are objective rights and wrongs in cultures, and knowing that culture itself is subjective doesn't get you a free pass on objectively bad behaviour ("bad" here meaning something closer to "incorrect", and not a moral judgement).
My theory is that many white people feel they can't be critical of "ethnic" cultures, because that's racist. You absolutely can, and it's not!
Dawkins probably thought he couldn't say it as a white person when he said that religion shouldn't get special treatment from criticism, but I'm not white so here it is: Cultures also shouldn't get special treatment. It might be your culture, but that doesn't mean it's not wrong.
Re: Why do east Asian firms value drinking?
#165Earlier quoted context omitted.
Meh, different life experiences then. I've never had any trouble with it. Then again I could be autistic and haven't noticed / cared. In a business setting, the room should bend to facts, not group-think.
> In a business setting, the room should bend to facts, not group-think. It should, sometimes, but ... Different people often have different beliefs about the facts. Sometimes there are higher priorities than the facts of the immediate issue. And most of all, in reality it doesn't work that way. Someone who acts as if it does is as incompetent as a developer who insists there's no such thing as platform constraints.…
> Sometimes there are higher priorities than the facts of the immediate issue
I'm with you! Of course there are many factors at play, but they are all part of "the facts" of which I'm speaking. I'm not talking about saying things like "No no, we have to do this the correct way, not with a shortcut". Sometimes a shortcut _is_ the correct way, given the circumstances.
> Your 'facts' may threaten someone's job, for example, or the CEO's reputation; do you expect they'll just go along with that?
It's not my job to hide other people's mistakes, even the CEO's. _However_ I'd like to emphasise that I don't think there's anything wrong with making mistakes. If you work in a culture where mistakes are seen as part of getting things done, it's not an issue. If you don't, I'd recommend finding somewhere where that's true, and you can call bullshit out without getting people fired, or hurting the CEO's feelings.
Re: Why do east Asian firms value drinking?
#166Earlier quoted context omitted.
Meh, different life experiences then. I've never had any trouble with it. Then again I could be autistic and haven't noticed / cared. In a business setting, the room should bend to facts, not group-think.
in a business setting 'who's the daddy' is often alot more important than the facts
I've noticed this is very much the case when working with Americans. There's a real weird vibe where dominance needs to be proven at every turn. Some European cultures have this a little too, but not to the extent it's evident with Americans.
Re: Why do east Asian firms value drinking?
#167Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't really see how this is the case, every single nice restaurant also has a bar and bar area, it's not like you have to go to Buffalo Wild Wings or something.
That's right, you have separate areas for dining (the restaurant) and drinking (the bar), and you choose one or the other, or at best sample both. In a Japanese izakaya, they're inseparable, you eat while you drink.
Usually the only difference is style of seating. The food and drink menu is the same
Re: Why do east Asian firms value drinking?
#168Earlier quoted context omitted.
Having a drink with the colleagues has nothing to do with alcoholism. I used to organize nights out with colleagues even if I was never drinking alcohol (I had to drive). But the point in "going for a beer" is socializing and informal communication, not the beer.
Obviously having a drink with the colleagues has nothing to do with alcoholism. I was responding to the comment that 'in the extreme, alcohol is a truth serum'. It isn't.
I don't think they meant extreme as in repetitive use.
I think they meant when you've drank enough to be drunk.
e.g it's not very effective as a truth serum if you've only had a little.
Re: Why do east Asian firms value drinking?
#169> Why Do East Asian Firms Value Drinking? Lack of a history of Christian puritanism? America's historic relationship with alcohol was shaped by the loonies who fled there from Europe so they could left alone to practice their ascetic forms of Christianity. A lot of phenomena in Asia cannot be properly understood if you lose sight of the lack of Christianity. For instance, could you have a mainstream, pop-band consist…
Korea is majority protestant.
Re: Why do east Asian firms value drinking?
#170Earlier quoted context omitted.
Drinkers also don't like having teetotalers around them because of the bad conscience they induce.
Another part of it is that (imo) one of the biggest boons from group drinking is that it builds trust by giving people something to bond over — you’ve all imbibed to lower your inhibitions and get a little sloppy/loose, and the next day you see that you’re still accepted and part of the group. Teetotalers might be there physically, but they’ve opted out of the shared experience of making themselves vulnerable.
> you’ve all imbibed to lower your inhibitions and get a little sloppy/loose, and the next day you see that you’re still accepted and part of the group.
In west coast tech companies with young people of both sexes, I absolutely refuse to drink due to not wanting to be accused of harassment or inappropriate behavior. I'm not a creep, but am older and not really attractive and am treated to a different standard.
Sounds paranoid but have had coworkers accused, penalized, or fired after these events.