I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k • Hacker News Board

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#151

Post by rremoncake » Thu, May 10, 2012, 9:39 PM UTC

j_baker wrote: post #146

altxwally wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Otherwise what you are saying is to be afraid of the status quo because they have many ways of monitoring your past so you should behave, isn't it? If your 'future employer' gets biased by this kind of stuff then it would make sense to reconsider applying for work there, and whether it is really worth it to keep on supporting such kinds of disciplinary systems. What he is claiming sounds reasonable, and there should…

I respect what you're saying, but it's a bit naive. First of all, how do you know that the facts that were mentioned were facts? Were you CC'ed on any of the emails? For all we know, the author made the conversation up. Secondly, nobody really likes hiring someone who speaks negatively about a former employer. Especially when there's no way to verify whether what they are saying is true.

I'd rather not post original emails and screenshots supporting my claims. If verification is demanded by the majority I'll comply.

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#152

Post by fady » Thu, May 10, 2012, 9:41 PM UTC

fleitz wrote: post #77

Stop calling it a bonus, it isn't, it's payment for your services of recruitment. The offer came as part of a written agreement from an officer of the company in relation to the duties required by employees (adding the optional duty of recruitment) and their remuneration for performing said services (your payment for recruitment). Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck. Bonuses are when you receive additional pay for…

i really liked this response. your last sentence about your legal advice is priceless ;) i did not know all these options were available either, so thanks!

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#153

Post by adgar » Thu, May 10, 2012, 9:41 PM UTC

davidu wrote: post #137

adgar wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When my girlfriend broke up with me, we had a lot of shared stuff in my apartment we had purchased together. I gave her back everything she wanted and more. Why? I didn't owe her anything. We'd purchased things together, lived together, ownership was undefined, and hell, she left me. Oh wait - human decency. That's what it is. I guess since HN is full of armchair CEOs, dismissing respectful business relationships is…

Your analogy makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense if you don't think about it too much, which I suspect you are. Here's the general pattern:

You don't have to do X to help Y, even though you said you would, and it'd be nice. But nobody would blame you if you didn't do X.

Indignant, you make a big deal about how you don't have to do X and it's Y's fault for not taking care of things earlier. Unsurprisingly you look like a selfish shithead in the eyes of decent people.

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#154

Post by pbiggar » Thu, May 10, 2012, 9:42 PM UTC

davidu wrote: post #86

"Because you are no longer employed by Miso, you are not eligible for this bonus." I must say, I completely agree. This is how it works. Your referral bonus is a perk, and nothing more. You didn't claim it. They weren't on top of it. You both failed here. But then you quit. And you left without it. That sucks for you, but they owe you nothing.

> "Your referral bonus is a perk"

It seems your argument centers on this point, which is conjecture on your part, at best. Can you explain how you came to this conclusion?

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#155

Post by mcantelon » Thu, May 10, 2012, 9:42 PM UTC

rb2k_ wrote: post #57

jxi wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The engineer communicated very professionally too. Just because you don't HAVE to not be an asshole, doesn't mean you SHOULD be an asshole. I agree with the engineer here since really this is something they promised at least informally and not delivering on it out of spite is just douchey.

His blogpost was quite questionable imho. Things like these really read as very professional, at least to me: - "Impeccable logic." - ' At this point. You might as well just tell me "fuck you. you didn't sign a contract. boohoo." ' - ' I was starting to feel like they were determined to screw me.' - 'No. I'm not proud of threatening, but I was pissed.' - ' The rest of this chain of emails consists of me double checki…

>Things like these really read as very professional, at least to me

It's a blog post, not a New York Times article. It has a pissed-off tone, understandable given the circumstances, but isn't venomous.

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#156

Post by veyron » Thu, May 10, 2012, 9:43 PM UTC

rhizome wrote: post #11

veyron wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FTA: "I was entitled to a $10k referral bonus offered by the CEO through internal emails." It was mentioned in an email.

Yeah, just saw that :/ One of my life lessons was that I didn't save email from one of the scenarios, email in which the CEO had asked me how old I was.

For posterity's sake I'd like to see you give a more detailed writeup.

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#157

Post by thaumaturgy » Thu, May 10, 2012, 9:44 PM UTC

MartinCron wrote: post #121

zasz wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't these separate incidents? Miso is benefiting from this employee referral, after all.

Exactly, coupling those incidents is, if not intellectually dishonest, at least intellectually sloppy.

It has nothing to do with the relatedness of those incidents. Again, since apparently people missed it:

Regardless of whether or not Miso is right to evade their promise of a bonus, I'm not so quick to heap sympathy upon rremoncake.

You hire a plumber to do a major job. You're in a hurry. You tell the plumber, I'll pay you a bonus if you finish this by (date). The plumber accidentally floods a downstairs room in the process of doing the job, but he finishes the work by the date you asked for. The flooding costs you an amount equal to or greater than his bonus. Weeks after the job is over, he asks for the bonus.

How excited are you to give it to him?

Clearly Miso owes him the money. Clearly it would be right for them to just pay him and move on. But if I were rremoncake, I would have been so embarrassed by my screw-up that I wouldn't have ever even asked for it in the first place.

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#158

Post by tptacek » Thu, May 10, 2012, 9:44 PM UTC

cletus wrote: post #130

"Name and shame" is a thorny issue. Opponents are right in the same way you shouldn't badmouth former employers in job interviewers. It's not fair but it makes you look worse. You just kind of have to suck it up and move on. When companies screw you out of money, you should name and shame them (IMHO). Trust me, over the years I've probably lost out on all told $50,000 or more that people never paid. In some cases it…

I just don't understand the mentality behind looking for reasons not to pay out bonuses. I see it all the time. It baffles me. When people have credible claims to incentive compensation, just freaking pay them. Almost by definition, we're talking about sums of money with very little marginal impact on the company; those same sums often have unpredictably huge impacts on employees.

Forward-looking, employees-only, whatever: not paying is more costly than paying. It sure as heck is here, because this ended up being Miso's introduction to a huge swath of potential candidates down the line. What a debacle.

If you have legitimate concerns about abuse of bonus programs, the problem is with the structure of your bonus program, not with how you enforce payouts.

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#159

Post by underwater » Thu, May 10, 2012, 9:44 PM UTC

ckdarby wrote: post #87

underwater wrote: post #61

While publicly posting about this probably feels good, it reflects badly on you as well as Miso. * The lack of backups is partly your fault. You were an engineer there after all. * Nuking a production database can happen, but the default assumption is that you are sloppy. * Based on the timeframes one could assume you were fired from Miso. * You have no problem revealing confidential information about your former emp…

* So you can tell me the exact backup times of everything at Facebook for your machine right? You're an engineer at Facebook therefore under your broad assumption you should be performing the exact same of your statement. If tomorrow everything was to fail at Facebook & there was no data recovery you're saying that everyone in the company should come blame you because well, hell, you're an engineer there after all...…

According to their site Miso have four engineers. At that scale there each and every engineer is responsibility for how things are run. If you want to only do what is assigned to you then you shouldn't be working at a startup. I've worked at small companies who'd punted on revision control and backups, and I made sure those things were put in place. When I haven't had the knowledge or access I've bought up the issue with those who did.

I wasn't trying to ad hominem the guy by suggesting he was fired. For all I know he may have got a better offer elsewhere. I was pointing out that in his attack on Miso he's made himself look bad. If a future potential employer reads this his comments are vague enough they could draw the conclusion I suggested. The same applies to publishing the emails. He may be within the law but to me it's a major red flag.

I shouldn't have to have a disclaimer; this is very obviously my personal opinion. I don't see how my employer is relevant to the discussion. Am I supposed to refrain from commenting at all in case someone tries to tie my professional life to my personal opinion?

Re: I'm a former Miso engineer and the founders screwed me out of 10k

#160

Post by mquander » Thu, May 10, 2012, 9:45 PM UTC

rb2k_ wrote: post #35

Honestly, the answers that the Miso founders gave seemed very professional and I think am a bit on their side in this one. If OP had asked for the bonus while still being at Miso, it seems like he would simply have gotten it. Seeing as a non-contractual bonus is an investment in the employee that the company does in addition to the usual compensation, and seeing as OP quit on his own and doesn't have a compensation a…

That doesn't make sense. A "nice extra that might disappear any second?" That's worth as much as a hole in my pocket. If giving referral bonuses is company policy, nobody would imagine that it might "disappear" retroactively if the management didn't happen to feel like paying you that day.

Regardless of whether it's legal, it's totally unethical to behave that way.