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Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

theatlantic.com

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Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#51

Post by jlarocco »

phillmv wrote: post #8

Do we have a good economic narrative for unpaid internships outside of naturally abusive talent driven industries (music, film, journalism)? Do internships just fall in this hole where you'd like to have an office wench but can't quite justify it in a budget, or is it entirely a made up social convention where older generations are extracting rents from new graduates? At any rate, the effect seems pretty clear to me:…

Internships aren't for making money, they're for gaining experience. Getting paid for them is nice, but the experience is the important part.

For some companies having to pay interns would just mean they wouldn't offer internships at all.

The reason interns are paid less (or not at all) is that there are lower expectations for interns and other staff usually has to take time to mentor them or check their work.

Maybe not the best example, but if a new paid employee says, "No, I've never used source control, what's that about?" it's a big problem. If an intern says it, you explain it and move on.

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#52

Post by CPops »

In most cases, an unpaid internship is probably a bad idea. But individuals should be making that choice based on their unique set of circumstances and goals. Individuals should be free to make a choice whether or not the experience they gain, the connections they make, the resume blurb, and whether getting their foot in the door is worth more to them than their free labor. In most cases its probably a bad idea, but in some cases some people might see the opportunity as worth their effort.

IMO, the issue here is that labor laws prevent companies from offering unpaid internships that involve something that a business can actually benefit from or that can conceivably displace a paid employee. Ostensibly created to prevent exploitation, these labor laws actually create exploitation by effectively forcing an unpaid internship to be an exercise in busy work for any company that actually follows the law.

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#53

Post by gm »

codexon wrote: post #48
gm wrote: post #25

Who gives a crap? Honestly: If you do not like the idea of being an unpaid intern, then don't be one. What's not a worthwhile opportunity for you might be an opportunity to someone else. Am I missing something? Seems like unpaid internships affect me and my job/economy as much as someone else eating a donut affects my weight.

If Zynga figures they can get free labor, your salary may take a drop, or at least stagnate.

Zynga _could_ get free labor if they wanted. People from all over are continually interested in working here.

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#54

Post by Kylekramer »

gm wrote: post #44
drumdance wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not the idea that offends, it's the practicality. I had to turn down an unpaid internship in my early twenties because I couldn't make ends meet otherwise. I ended up going into a completely different field. I'm happy with my current profession, but I occasionally wonder "what if..."

Yeah, that was your choice. In my case I stuck it out and am really happy with my choice as well. That's the whole point: Choice.

Sounds to me like drumdance didn't have a choice. The whole point is unpaid internships are by nature not even an option for many.

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#55

Post by j_baker »

sliverstorm wrote: post #42
j_baker wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, so you didn't exploit that worker. Congratulations. But what about the other kid who may or may not have been more qualified than the kid you hired, but couldn't afford to work for free?

This is not a useful argument. If we consider the unpaid internship in question a learning experience, and we compare a kid who can afford to work for free and a kid who cannot, all we conclude is "the kid who has more free time, gets in more learning". Is this a radical, unethical situation? I don't think so. Besides, if we assume the work produced by the intern is of negligible to zero value, and we still decide to…

Wait, what are you saying? Employment should be predicated on the employer giving the employee an adequate monetary reward in exchange for an adequate monetary reward for the employee? And if either side isn't getting their adequate monetary reward, the job shouldn't exist? This is a radical concept!

Seriously though, perhaps I'm just cynical, but I seriously doubt that such internships won't be offered. Companies get monetary gain from interns, otherwise they wouldn't spend any time and effort on them (even if not money). I think the simpler answer is that companies are just cheap. I mean, experience is great and all, but if money is being made off of a person's labor, then they deserve my cut. How large that cut should be is up for negotiation, but that they deserve a cut shouldn't be.

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#56

Post by blindhippo »

drumdance wrote: post #41
eli_gottlieb wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that logic, we should pass a law saying that you never have to pay employees if you don't want to. The number of jobs will simply explode!

Not as crazy as you think. Many economists support this.

Err what? Not as crazy... Care to back this statement up with references to said "economists"?

If you give organizations the option to employ people and just randomly decide not to pay them, they will at every opportunity NOT pay time. This is basic logic... the motivators for the organization propel this behavior and the American market system will reward them for it - these economists you speak of are likely cracked.

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#57

Post by gms »

j_baker wrote: post #27
gms wrote: post #20

Organisations have decided that this specific set of internships aren't worth paying a wage for. Workers have decided that they are worth their time, for the experience/foot in the door they gain. If you ban unpaid internships, companies won't offer the positions anymore (as they have decided their value is zero), which means people seeking them won't be able to obtain them. Sounds like everyone would actually be wor…

You mean a sizable subset of workers have decided they're worth their time. I think it's worth bringing up Maslowe's hierarchy of needs. If you can't afford to eat or pay rent, the experience you're getting is among the least of your concerns. If your food and rent situation is taken care of beforehand (and it's almost always done so by someone else), then you get to base your decision on whether or not the time is w…

This dilemma applies to everyone. If you can't afford to do what you want, then earn money doing something else until you can. Alternatively, do both at the same time, using your earned money to simultaneously subsidise your time doing the other thing.

It's also possible that you decide this unpaid experience is just not worth it after all, in which case you can get a job that actually pays.

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#58

Post by MatthewPhillips »

phillmv wrote: post #38
eli_gottlieb wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Narrative? Any company is going to take free labor if they can get away with it. The problem here is the clear contravention of labor laws.

Yes. But why is this a new situation? What's changed about the economy if this is only now becoming standard practice? Is there really a large glut of recent graduates and a corresponding lack of new jobs, or is this just a collective action problem where since recent graduates can't reject unpaid internships en masse we're stuck in a race to the bottom? Do we offer unpaid internships because there are just so many p…

It didn't happen over night. We're in a situation where there is little alternative for new graduates. 20 years ago you were special if you went to college, today its just a prereq to not have your resume thrown directly in the trash. Additionally no emphasis is placed on career or skill-learning at college, it's a place to study things that interest you (which I'm all in favor of, but the realities of the world are that the demand for people who know a lot about 16th century literature is low).

So we have millions of kids graduating college with no discernable skills, and an industrial economy that is all but dead. Perfect ground for exploitation of these kids who just want to get their foot in the door of some place that has air conditioning and decent medical benefits.

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#59

Post by sliverstorm »

j_baker wrote: post #55
sliverstorm wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not a useful argument. If we consider the unpaid internship in question a learning experience, and we compare a kid who can afford to work for free and a kid who cannot, all we conclude is "the kid who has more free time, gets in more learning". Is this a radical, unethical situation? I don't think so. Besides, if we assume the work produced by the intern is of negligible to zero value, and we still decide to…

Wait, what are you saying? Employment should be predicated on the employer giving the employee an adequate monetary reward in exchange for an adequate monetary reward for the employee? And if either side isn't getting their adequate monetary reward, the job shouldn't exist? This is a radical concept! Seriously though, perhaps I'm just cynical, but I seriously doubt that such internships won't be offered. Companies ge…

I agree individuals ought to get a cut if they benefit the company, but what if that benefit is only worth $2/hr?

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#60

Post by zeroonetwothree »

drumdance wrote: post #41
eli_gottlieb wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that logic, we should pass a law saying that you never have to pay employees if you don't want to. The number of jobs will simply explode!

Not as crazy as you think. Many economists support this.

This is just abolishing the minimum wage. Since most people don't get paid the minimum wage this would only affect a small number of workers. But the main benefit is that currently unemployable people would actually be able to get hired.
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