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Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

theatlantic.com

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Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#41

Post by drumdance »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #33
gms wrote: post #20

Organisations have decided that this specific set of internships aren't worth paying a wage for. Workers have decided that they are worth their time, for the experience/foot in the door they gain. If you ban unpaid internships, companies won't offer the positions anymore (as they have decided their value is zero), which means people seeking them won't be able to obtain them. Sounds like everyone would actually be wor…

By that logic, we should pass a law saying that you never have to pay employees if you don't want to. The number of jobs will simply explode!

Not as crazy as you think. Many economists support this.

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#42

Post by sliverstorm »

j_baker wrote: post #28
jreeve wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"... unpaid internships are huge drivers of inequality." I believe that they can be, but as someone who actually had an unpaid intern (and who eventually got said intern a job at the company where we were working), let me make a case that they do not have to be exploitative. I personally enjoy teaching, and have taught at two different universities. In addition to simply being a rewarding thing to do, it is a good wa…

Ok, so you didn't exploit that worker. Congratulations. But what about the other kid who may or may not have been more qualified than the kid you hired, but couldn't afford to work for free?

This is not a useful argument. If we consider the unpaid internship in question a learning experience, and we compare a kid who can afford to work for free and a kid who cannot, all we conclude is "the kid who has more free time, gets in more learning". Is this a radical, unethical situation? I don't think so.

Besides, if we assume the work produced by the intern is of negligible to zero value, and we still decide to force companies to pay for such interns, in the current work environment they will simply stop offering them. This seems like a net loss to me.

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#43

Post by paulgb »

j_baker wrote: post #30
paulgb wrote: post #11

I don't buy the argument that unpaid internships are immoral because they disadvantage the underprivileged. Higher education systematically disadvantages the underprivileged, especially at US tuition rates. Does that make going to Harvard unethical? There is clearly a supply/demand mismatch in some industries, and unpaid internships are a symptom, not the cause. I get defensive when the issue of unpaid internships co…

I'd expect that Harvard has at least some scholarships/grants for underprivileged students. Unpaid internships offer no such niceties.

That's fair, but it's still far easier to get a brand-name education in the USA if you come from a middle/upper-class background.

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#44

Post by gm »

drumdance wrote: post #35
gm wrote: post #25

Who gives a crap? Honestly: If you do not like the idea of being an unpaid intern, then don't be one. What's not a worthwhile opportunity for you might be an opportunity to someone else. Am I missing something? Seems like unpaid internships affect me and my job/economy as much as someone else eating a donut affects my weight.

It's not the idea that offends, it's the practicality. I had to turn down an unpaid internship in my early twenties because I couldn't make ends meet otherwise. I ended up going into a completely different field. I'm happy with my current profession, but I occasionally wonder "what if..."

Yeah, that was your choice. In my case I stuck it out and am really happy with my choice as well.

That's the whole point: Choice.

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#45

Post by j_baker »

gm wrote: post #25

Who gives a crap? Honestly: If you do not like the idea of being an unpaid intern, then don't be one. What's not a worthwhile opportunity for you might be an opportunity to someone else. Am I missing something? Seems like unpaid internships affect me and my job/economy as much as someone else eating a donut affects my weight.

Honestly, if you don't like reading articles that complain about interns who aren't paid, don't read them. What's not a worthwhile opportunity for you might be an opportunity for someone else.

In all seriousness, unpaid internships benefit no one other than the employer who gets free labor and the few students who have enough money to not care whether they get paid or not. They're not good for paid workers who now have to start salary negotiations with the other side upset that they even have to pay them at all. Nor are they good for the economy, which needs more consumer demand. And they certainly aren't good for students who are well-qualified, but can't afford to not get a pay check.

Help me understand how unpaid internships aren't a mechanism to keep the rich rich and to keep the poor from becoming productive members of society. Seriously.

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#46

Post by [deleted] »

j_baker wrote: post #28
jreeve wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"... unpaid internships are huge drivers of inequality." I believe that they can be, but as someone who actually had an unpaid intern (and who eventually got said intern a job at the company where we were working), let me make a case that they do not have to be exploitative. I personally enjoy teaching, and have taught at two different universities. In addition to simply being a rewarding thing to do, it is a good wa…

Ok, so you didn't exploit that worker. Congratulations. But what about the other kid who may or may not have been more qualified than the kid you hired, but couldn't afford to work for free?

[deleted]

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#47

Post by sliverstorm »

gm wrote: post #25

Who gives a crap? Honestly: If you do not like the idea of being an unpaid intern, then don't be one. What's not a worthwhile opportunity for you might be an opportunity to someone else. Am I missing something? Seems like unpaid internships affect me and my job/economy as much as someone else eating a donut affects my weight.

The main "how this affects me" argument is establishing a culture of unpaid interns encourages the practice, which will snowball to the point of virtually requiring X years as an unpaid intern to get a job, anywhere.

Of course this doesn't affect senior employees with twenty years of experience under their belts, but that doesn't mean it isn't a concern for the greater good.

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#48

Post by codexon »

gm wrote: post #25

Who gives a crap? Honestly: If you do not like the idea of being an unpaid intern, then don't be one. What's not a worthwhile opportunity for you might be an opportunity to someone else. Am I missing something? Seems like unpaid internships affect me and my job/economy as much as someone else eating a donut affects my weight.

If Zynga figures they can get free labor, your salary may take a drop, or at least stagnate.

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#49

Post by gm »

j_baker wrote: post #45
gm wrote: post #25

Who gives a crap? Honestly: If you do not like the idea of being an unpaid intern, then don't be one. What's not a worthwhile opportunity for you might be an opportunity to someone else. Am I missing something? Seems like unpaid internships affect me and my job/economy as much as someone else eating a donut affects my weight.

Honestly, if you don't like reading articles that complain about interns who aren't paid, don't read them. What's not a worthwhile opportunity for you might be an opportunity for someone else. In all seriousness, unpaid internships benefit no one other than the employer who gets free labor and the few students who have enough money to not care whether they get paid or not. They're not good for paid workers who now ha…

A good unpaid internship is the beginning of an apprenticeship: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apprenticeship

If the internship does not lead to future employment at the same organization, then it might at another organization.

A bad unpaid internship should go unfilled because the intern is not gaining anything from it.

Re: Unpaid Internships: Bad for Students, Bad for Workers, Bad for Society

#50

Post by dummyaccount999 »

datr wrote: post #2

Are internships with The Atlantic paid or unpaid? Edit: According to this article: http://www.dailyfinance.com/2010/04/06/atlantic-publisher-ta... all atlantic interns are paid.

I worked for Atlantic Media (this is a throwaway), and based on my experience there, that organization is harmed just as badly by its low-paid internships as it would be if they did not pay at all. A significant portion of the drudgery is performed by interns, and the company is very reluctant to hire new people. And they get away with it because of the bright-eyed college kids who will do this for low-pay. Few to none of the interns come back for a permanent position.

The corporate attitude at Atlantic Media is that people are generally expendable, and that the staff on-hand will pick up the slack when pissed off employees walk out the door. So most of the work there is performed by underpaid interns and underpaid, disgruntled employees.

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