Live data from Hacker News

The greenest car in America isn't an EV

washingtonpost.com

11–20 of 37 posts

Re: The greenest car in America isn't an EV

#11
post #8

During this energy transition phase more emphasis should be on PHEVs since 1. We have the infrastructure to build PHEVs faster than EVs. Since they are mostly modifications of current vehicles. 2. With the same amount of battery material to make 1 EV we can make ~10 PHEVs and adding that to the fact that most people drive less than 40 miles per day, the effective electric range of a typical PHEV, you are utilizing th…

they also completely solve the range problem.

Re: The greenest car in America isn't an EV

#13
post #8

During this energy transition phase more emphasis should be on PHEVs since 1. We have the infrastructure to build PHEVs faster than EVs. Since they are mostly modifications of current vehicles. 2. With the same amount of battery material to make 1 EV we can make ~10 PHEVs and adding that to the fact that most people drive less than 40 miles per day, the effective electric range of a typical PHEV, you are utilizing th…

Yeah I think the main issue with PHEVs is essentially that people don’t charge them / do the majority of their kilometers / miles on the ICE engine :). See https://theicct.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/real-world-ph...

Anecdotally, I recently rented a Jeep Wrangler PHEV. Didn’t choose that model specifically; was expecting a Prius but it’s what the rental counter gave me.

The battery was dead when I picked it up. It was dead when I returned it, despite me actually looking for a L2 charger just to see what it would be like to drive fully on battery. It did drive as a hybrid (I could feel the ICE stop and start) but it wasn’t nearly as efficient as it could have been, especially considering my entire rental was probably under 100 miles.

Re: The greenest car in America isn't an EV

#14
post #10

The less you drive an EV the harder it is to offset the embodied carbon involved in manufacturing it. There will be a point where, if you don't drive much, an EV emits more carbon than a internal combustion engine car. If you drive a bit more, the EV is more efficient than an ICE but less efficient than a hybrid with a smaller battery. If you drive a bit more the EV will be more efficient than either. The article pic…

Good points. In the grand scheme of things, I don’t think the CO2 emissions associated with EVs matter at all. Is our goal for to cut emissions by 10%? No. It’s to cut emissions by 100%. To reach that goal, we need all vehicles to be pure BEVs (approximately.. some ICE on biofuels/e-fuel could work, but it’s not sustainable on a large scale), materials must be near 100% recycled, and whatever mining is done most be d…

> Is our goal for to cut emissions by 10%? No. It’s to cut emissions by 100%.

I don't think most people would want to live in the world where you've cut emissions by 100%.

Even making a bicycle emits some amount of emissions. Making a PV panel emits GHG emissions. Having a pet emits GHG emissions.

Re: The greenest car in America isn't an EV

#15
post #8

During this energy transition phase more emphasis should be on PHEVs since 1. We have the infrastructure to build PHEVs faster than EVs. Since they are mostly modifications of current vehicles. 2. With the same amount of battery material to make 1 EV we can make ~10 PHEVs and adding that to the fact that most people drive less than 40 miles per day, the effective electric range of a typical PHEV, you are utilizing th…

I'm not inclined to think that the battery material is really the largest constraint to building efficient PHEV/EVs though. I'm in VA and when I was looking for a 2023/2024 Prius Prime to test drive, not a single one was in stock within hours of me. To test drive one, I'd have to drive hours into Maryland or Pennsylvania and then if I wanted it, likely have to pay way over MSRP plus bs doc fees, "upgrades" and other nonsense. I eventually said F that shit and just bought a Tesla that is 100% battery. They're easily available, in inventory, despite each one perhaps having 10 times the amount of battery than the Prius Prime. Given the ease there is to buy a Tesla, and the easy availability of Mach-E and the Kia and Hyundai EVs, I can't believe that the whole 10 PHEV = 1 EV is an equation of any importance.

Re: The greenest car in America isn't an EV

#16

Anyone know why they don't seem to have looked at Tesla at all? Weird to omit the largest EV seller in America by far.

They did. Have a look at the spreadsheet from the report. The Tesla Model 3 Long Range has a Green Score of 64. Not sure where they pulled the chart from in the NYT article, but it would still fall at 11; just off the list. The actual data if sorted by "Green Score" (tried to look up the scoring methodology but the website is down: https://greenercars.org/news/2024-methodology-update) looks like this before you hit the first Tesla (when removing duplicates and similar models).

TOYOTA PRIUS PRIME SE

Hyundai Ioniq Electric

Mini Cooper SE Hardtop 2 Door

Mercedes-Benz Smart Fortwo ed Coupe

BMW I3

Hyundai Ioniq Plug-in Hybrid

Kandi K23, (254Ah)

Nissan Leaf

LEXUS RZ 300e (18inch Wheels)

MAZDA MX-30

Tesla Model 3 Long Range

https://www.aceee.org/sites/default/files/files/LEED2024.xls...

Re: The greenest car in America isn't an EV

#17

The less you drive an EV the harder it is to offset the embodied carbon involved in manufacturing it. There will be a point where, if you don't drive much, an EV emits more carbon than a internal combustion engine car. If you drive a bit more, the EV is more efficient than an ICE but less efficient than a hybrid with a smaller battery. If you drive a bit more the EV will be more efficient than either. The article pic…

Keep in mind the embodied carbon also goes down as the rest of the supply chain switches to low carbon or carbon free alternatives.

Re: The greenest car in America isn't an EV

#18

The less you drive an EV the harder it is to offset the embodied carbon involved in manufacturing it. There will be a point where, if you don't drive much, an EV emits more carbon than a internal combustion engine car. If you drive a bit more, the EV is more efficient than an ICE but less efficient than a hybrid with a smaller battery. If you drive a bit more the EV will be more efficient than either. The article pic…

I have unresolved questions surrounding this concept. I agree with you that for the X number of years that you own the vehicle, the less you drive the harder it is to offset the manufacturing-related carbon emitted.

Once you are done with ownership, that vehicle is going to be owned by someone else, and probably at least one or two people after that. How do we account for that? Do we assume that all vehicles will be driven the same distance over their lifetime? Should we even bother to consider this factor? Does it matter if the distance driven is front-loaded or back-loaded (the original owner drives a lot or a little)? Are we overcomplicating things?

Re: The greenest car in America isn't an EV

#19

The less you drive an EV the harder it is to offset the embodied carbon involved in manufacturing it. There will be a point where, if you don't drive much, an EV emits more carbon than a internal combustion engine car. If you drive a bit more, the EV is more efficient than an ICE but less efficient than a hybrid with a smaller battery. If you drive a bit more the EV will be more efficient than either. The article pic…

Buy a used EV with 50k miles on it, problem solved

Re: The greenest car in America isn't an EV

#20

This is a big red flag: > "The GreenerCars report analyzes 1,200 cars available in 2024, assessing both the carbon dioxide emissions of the vehicle while it’s on the road and the emissions of manufacturing the car and battery." First, fossil fuel consumption, not carbon dioxide emissions, is the important metric if you're concerned about climate. Humans eat food and breath out carbon dioxide; it's not going to change…

I think the real oversight is not mentioning that the whole supply chain to provide the fossil fuel used to power the ICE or Hubrid. Its petroleum and fossil fuels all the way down. Even if those BEVs use fossil fuels to charge, there is no way that impact is as large as all the fossil fuels used in the delivering of fossil fuels to fill up your car with a gas tank (or the oil you regularly change).
Post reply on HN