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European summer weather linked to North Atlantic freshwater anomalies

wcd.copernicus.org

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Re: European summer weather linked to North Atlantic freshwater anomalies

#81

Post by myrmidon »

thriftwy wrote: post #15
mewpmewp2 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There could still be a lot of improvement in both summers and winters in more north of Europe. And hopefully we could nuke something in some way that would balance out the sun so that summers wouldn't be constant light and winters completely dark. It is just depressing. It is unclear what our ancestors were thinking moving here. Probably forced.

[flagged]

I'd like to point out that Europe IS restoring local habitats and species, see e.g. brown bears and wolves, which used to be essentially extinct in mid/western Europe.

But I also think your argument is much weaker than it feels; why, actually, should the sins of your ancestors undermine your actions in the present?

Is it misguided if the Italians of today act againt slavery and human trafficking because slavery was tolerated in ancient Rome?

Re: European summer weather linked to North Atlantic freshwater anomalies

#82

Post by thriftwy »

myrmidon wrote: post #81
thriftwy wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I'd like to point out that Europe IS restoring local habitats and species, see e.g. brown bears and wolves, which used to be essentially extinct in mid/western Europe. But I also think your argument is much weaker than it feels ; why, actually, should the sins of your ancestors undermine your actions in the present? Is it misguided if the Italians of today act againt slavery and human trafficking because slavery was…

So in Russia there's this Pleistocene Park, which is a part of tundra where grazing animals are left to be in hopes of recovering the ancient arctic steppe landscape.

I hope they still exist and get some finance in the current polit-economical climate.

Nothing prevents the EU from buying a large amount of Indonesian lands (Brazil, etc) and making it a Orangutan paradise. Like a national park but this time actually international. I guess everybody will be happy, including Indonesia who will sell or rent out this land, and private property laws will prevent deforestation.

Instead of this EU just nags Indonesia that it should preserve its pristine nature instead of developing its economy. Stick is being waived and no apparent carrots. That looks highly hypocritical, given how European countries of the past absolutely devastated their lands for the sake of economic development. Even now, Norway is planning on killing every one of their wild boars[1]. I'm not sure how the effort to reintroduce wolves elsewhere compares with that plan. Reintroduce a couple dozen wolves, kill 2k boars?

Returning to the Californians, with their urban sprawl they've already wasted a large portion of landscapes in their state, taking advantage of the awesome weather they are having. When they start telling other people around the world how they should be living and developing lands, the only appropriate response is "stop lecturing us, provide material help instead".

1. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/19/norway-conside...

Re: European summer weather linked to North Atlantic freshwater anomalies

#83

Post by jhncls »

ThalesX wrote: post #60
tda wrote: post #22

The issue with climate change is exactly that: change. Doesn't matter if it get colder, dryer, wetter, warmer than it used too. It is a huge undertaking to change the built environment to handle conditions that were once seen as exceptional. Houses, streets and waterways are normally replaced/adjusted on the scale of multiple decades or even centuries. Significant climate change is affecting areas everywhere on a sin…

This sounds great for GDP!

You may want to familiarize yourself with the parable of the broken window.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window

Re: European summer weather linked to North Atlantic freshwater anomalies

#84

Post by mdw »

Earths history has had many extraordinary climate changes, we already know of events like Permian–Triassic extinction.

I appreciate many people feel an obligation for humanity to minimise its effect on climate change, but the way I see it, change is constant. If we don’t cause an extinction event, earth will do it just fine without us.

The best result for humanity is if we get off this rock asap and improve our technology. The quicker we do this the better. If we have to ruin earth and its beautiful climate in the process, so be it.

Re: European summer weather linked to North Atlantic freshwater anomalies

#85

Post by GartzenDeHaes »

BlueTemplar wrote: post #34
dbetteridge wrote: post #3

Summary: More ice melt => More fresh water in the Atlantic => cold surface anomalies in winter => sub-polar winter storms => heatwaves in Europe in summer Mostly not predicted as models do not have fine enough grid resolution to show the movement of freshwater into the Atlantic, which happens via "narrow" channels.

Sigh, considering how bad journalists are at nuance - especially those that don't consider themselves as journalists but still wield the 4th Power of Broadcast - I can't wait (/s) until we have to "explain ourselves" about how it "contradicts" our previous meme about excess freshwater from melt being expected to at least slow down the thermohaline circulation in the North Atlantic, leading to a weaker Gulf Stream, an…

> and about chaotic systems

Surely you mean complex adaptive systems.

Re: European summer weather linked to North Atlantic freshwater anomalies

#86

Post by fy20 »

tokai wrote: post #16
thatsit wrote: post #10

So, as the nordic countries have experienced a cold winter this year, we are destined for a hot summer in europe?

Besides the very northern parts it hasn't been cold. Spring flowers bloomed last week in Denmark.

Here in Lithuania we had one day below -20c this winter. Usually we have at least one or two weeks like that. Now the snow has melted and it's spring, feels around 6 weeks too early.

Re: European summer weather linked to North Atlantic freshwater anomalies

#87

Post by DrScientist »

mdw wrote: post #84

Earths history has had many extraordinary climate changes, we already know of events like Permian–Triassic extinction. I appreciate many people feel an obligation for humanity to minimise its effect on climate change, but the way I see it, change is constant. If we don’t cause an extinction event, earth will do it just fine without us. The best result for humanity is if we get off this rock asap and improve our techn…

That's makes no sense.

Is the climate nicer and grass really greener on Mars?

Re: European summer weather linked to North Atlantic freshwater anomalies

#88

Post by kayo_20211030 »

defrost wrote: post #54
jillesvangurp wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, quite a few of this is predicted just not with full certainty. One thing people forget is that Europe is very warm compared to most of Northern America which for the same latitude features much harsher temperatures in the winter. Most of Northern Europe isn't like most of Siberia or Canada (e.g. Berlin where I live is at the same latitude as Newfoundland. Toronto is almost 9 degrees further south. Winters a…

>The reason for that is the gulf stream Or, perhaps not: The Source of Europe's Mild Climate The notion that the Gulf Stream is responsible for keeping Europe anomalously warm turns out to be a myth https://www.americanscientist.org/article/the-source-of-euro... For context this is mostly from Richard Seager from back in 2002 https://ocp.ldeo.columbia.edu/res/div/ocp/people/seager/ https://www.atmos.washington.edu/~d…

Both can be right. The heat budget of the NE Pacific ocean, without an equivalent to the Gulf Stream, may well explain the milder winters in Seattle, but the NE Atlantic's heat budget is still "goosed" by the Gulf Stream and mixing. The paper's argument doesn't engage that argument. It deals with atmospheric changes postulated as a consequence of freshwater anomalies caused by arctic melting.

Re: European summer weather linked to North Atlantic freshwater anomalies

#89

Post by magicalhippo »

Moldoteck wrote: post #68
tokai wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its 6 degrees in Oslo right now - in February.

didn't oslo always been warm bc of ocean currents?

Ocean currents and winds, but January and February have traditionally been the coldest months.
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