Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu • Hacker News Board

Re: Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu

#61

Post by gjsman-1000 » Tue, Feb 27, 2024, 9:56 PM UTC

hsbauauvhabzb wrote: post #58

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nintendo can't prove the leak wouldn't have happened without Yuzu. But they don't have to. They can simply show that Yuzu made it infinitely worse. Also, suing Yuzu does not preclude suing emulator makers or flashcart makers - they can all be sued as they all have culpability.

So can companies of leaved PC games sue nvidia or windows?

The law doesn't work on strict abstract principles. Windows has a million uses of which piracy is just one. Yuzu has two uses (playing legitimate backups and pirated backups), of which Nintendo may successfully argue, both are piracy (due to the circumvention of encryption in both cases). In which case, the only possible use in 99.9%+ of cases... is for illegal activity.

Re: Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu

#62

Post by borski » Tue, Feb 27, 2024, 9:57 PM UTC

johnny99k wrote: post #15

theultdev wrote: post #5

This is a pretty big case to watch. Are there any cases of emulators being sued successfully? A user being able to provide keys and a rom from which they could own or be homebrew doesn't seem to violate copyright to me. edit: seems the consensus is once via legal fund attrition, but the case went to the emulator authors in the end.

This won't matter. The goal will be to run them out of money. It's an open source project and they most likely don't have the capital to fund any sort of lengthy lawsuit.

That’s where approaching someone like the EFF comes in.

Re: Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu

#63

Post by egypturnash » Tue, Feb 27, 2024, 9:57 PM UTC

Huh, guess I better go make sure the copy on my Steam Deck is up to date. Not that I've actually bothered acquiring a single Switch ROM, there's so damn many neat little mid-sized games on the thing.

Re: Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu

#64

Post by UberFly » Tue, Feb 27, 2024, 9:57 PM UTC

withinboredom wrote: post #37

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not necessarily. It's fairly easy to prove that if the emulator did not exist, the leak would be fairly inconsequential; and considering how easy it is to show the percentage of pirating users versus legitimate users (probably 95%+), it's not a good look. There's also the issue that, unlike prior emulators, Yuzu risks running afoul of DMCA anti-trafficking provisions for circumvention devices and software that uses c…

> It's fairly easy to prove that if the emulator did not exist, the leak would be fairly inconsequential That. Literally doesn't make any logical sense. That's like arguing that if computers didn't exist, the leak would be fairly inconsequential ... or if electricity didn't exist, the leak would be fairly inconsequential.

Logical sense? I can't really just play the pirated game on my home electricity. Just like you can't sue the road when a car runs you down.

Re: Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu

#65

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 » Tue, Feb 27, 2024, 9:59 PM UTC

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #49

summerlight wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> unlike prior emulators, Yuzu risks running afoul of DMCA anti-trafficking provisions for circumvention devices and software that uses circumvention devices This is interesting, it'd be great to have a link to explain this matter more deeply.

Sure. Just look up the DeCSS controversy which got the creator of a DVD ripping software arrested and barely avoiding extradition, or the 09 F9 controversy where the MPAA attempted to censor a number from the internet. This provision in the DMCA has been most often used against developers of unauthorized DVD copying software, Blu-ray copying software, etc; and the force of the legal argument has been well proven prev…

That was one of the few times, when I can look back and feel like the user has won. It has been something of a steady decline since.

I would love for some clear indication that we have some digital rights left, but I am not certain the same reaction would not be possible to be replicated today.

Re: Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu

#66

Post by plussed_reader » Tue, Feb 27, 2024, 9:59 PM UTC

gamepsys wrote: post #55

Feorn wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think ROM sites were an artifact of the internet speeds we had access to early on. Where it wasn't practical to just download an entire library for an older console. Downloading an N64 ROM over dialup still took a little longer than an mp3, whole collections of them were out of the question. Even early broadband in many areas was limited to speeds where a single ROM was more practical to download. Complete ROM coll…

Downloading entire ROM collections quickly becomes too much data for local storage, starting with Saturn/PS1 and escalating from there.

Nah, you just need to scale up your storage expectation; I think 8TB will cover most of a PS1 localization.

Re: Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu

#67

Post by withinboredom » Tue, Feb 27, 2024, 10:00 PM UTC

UberFly wrote: post #64

withinboredom wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's fairly easy to prove that if the emulator did not exist, the leak would be fairly inconsequential That. Literally doesn't make any logical sense. That's like arguing that if computers didn't exist, the leak would be fairly inconsequential ... or if electricity didn't exist, the leak would be fairly inconsequential.

Logical sense? I can't really just play the pirated game on my home electricity. Just like you can't sue the road when a car runs you down.

Well, let me put it this way. Why don't they sue Dell then? If Dell computers didn't exist, pirated games couldn't be played! Or sue themselves, because if hacked Switches didn't exist, pirated games couldn't be played!

Re: Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu

#68

Post by tavavex » Tue, Feb 27, 2024, 10:00 PM UTC

jsheard wrote: post #34

bentley wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not necessarily. It's fairly easy to prove that if the emulator did not exist, the leak would be fairly inconsequential… Well, no. Pirated Switch games can be played on a hacked Switch or a flashcart with no emulation necessary. Common sense suggests emulation would be significantly more common, but can Nintendo prove that in court, or prove that the leak wouldn’t have happened without Yuzu’s existence?

> Common sense suggests emulation would be significantly more common, but can Nintendo prove that in court Nintendo is making that argument on the basis that Yuzu's Patreon income skyrocketed when TOTK leaked online. https://graphtreon.com/creator/yuzuteam It checks out, TOTK leaked on May 1st 2023 and Yuzus monthly income rose from $19k to $45k throughout May, having never broken $25k previously.

I'm confused as to how or why the Yuzu team would be held liable for this. Is it their responsibility to ensure that people don't donate money to them if the timing of that donation coincides with an unrelated leak of Nintendo's IP? If emulation is allowed and the Yuzu team itself isn't engaging in the promotion of piracy, I don't see what the case is here.

Re: Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu

#69

Post by michaelmrose » Tue, Feb 27, 2024, 10:00 PM UTC

jsheard wrote: post #34

bentley wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not necessarily. It's fairly easy to prove that if the emulator did not exist, the leak would be fairly inconsequential… Well, no. Pirated Switch games can be played on a hacked Switch or a flashcart with no emulation necessary. Common sense suggests emulation would be significantly more common, but can Nintendo prove that in court, or prove that the leak wouldn’t have happened without Yuzu’s existence?

> Common sense suggests emulation would be significantly more common, but can Nintendo prove that in court Nintendo is making that argument on the basis that Yuzu's Patreon income skyrocketed when TOTK leaked online. https://graphtreon.com/creator/yuzuteam It checks out, TOTK leaked on May 1st 2023 and Yuzus monthly income rose from $19k to $45k throughout May, having never broken $25k previously.

You can prove irrelevant correlation. They weren't even paid for TOTK. The fact that users may have intended to play TOTK is something Yuzu had no control over.

Re: Nintendo is suing the creators of Switch emulator Yuzu

#70

Post by monocasa » Tue, Feb 27, 2024, 10:01 PM UTC

withinboredom wrote: post #51

monocasa wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure they're necessarily claiming the keys are copywritten (which honestly would be a terrible strategy), but instead that yuzu's ability to injest keys and encrypted copywritten works (decrypting them on the fly as needed like a switch would) constitutes a circumvention device banned by 17 US § 1201. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/1201

For the keys to be considered to fall under the DCMA, they'd have to be copyrighted.

Not under 1201. They can form a copyright circumvention device without being subject to copyright themselves as long as they're used to protect an actual copywritten work (in this case the encrypted game images).