Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Punk is dead and so are we

bananapeel.substack.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

171–180 of 213 posts

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#171

Post by JohnBooty »

friend_and_foe wrote: post #109
bee_rider wrote: post #86

It is funny to note that “Punk is Dead” came out in 1977, but all the action in the article WRT punk is happening in the 90’s and beyond. The author acknowledges this in a way, though: > the only visible instantiation of a subcultural franchise putting on against-the-grain airs similar to those of the punks and goths of the 1990s (who had all been thoroughly domesticated by that point)[…] Anyway, I’m not sure who the…

Is it possible your affinity to the blue hair and pronouns subculture prevents you from seriously considering the author's analysis of it? To a gay man or transvestite (as they often called themselves, nothing derogatory meant by it) of yore, surely that movement represented freedom from repression. Today, when bigotry towards homosexuals is socially taboo, what does it mean to the allies, warriors and fluid genders?…

    To me it looks exactly like what the author says: mainstream, 
    corporate captured product marketing, in group signalling, an 
    aesthetic subculture...
i'm well into middle age now, and i have always thought this about "subculture/counterculture" groups in general -- how are you even rebelling when you all look the same? you're conforming, just to the norms of a smaller group.

however, you're missing (at least!) a few major pillars of what's happening with the LGBT+ community.

1. for those who have (and still do) have to spend much of their lives hiding their true identities, just getting to express themselves openly and with pride is a joy. something that's hard to imagine if you've never had to hide.

2. being gay/trans/etc is a pretty material and fundamental part of one's identity. it's orders of magnitude different from "liking grunge music in 1993" or whatever.

3. it is not necessarily acceptable, or even safe, to be LGBT+ in many places or around many people. in that sense these shared and "stereotypical" aesthetics serve actual functional purposes - they allow LGBT folks to identify others who are not likely to negatively judge or persecute them.

    ...feigning angst and struggle
they're feigning? who are you to decide that?

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#172

Post by bee_rider »

AlecSchueler wrote: post #50
im_down_w_otp wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd also expect them not to be luddites, but rather subversive rejectors. This probably isn't an entirely apt example, but think people who use things like PiHole rather than people who never adopted the internet in the first place.

That's what the actual Luddite movement was in the first place.

It seems quite funny that the imagined version of the Luddites, which people always contrast against, does not seem to be a very accurate description of them.

Like maybe we don’t even need to contrast against the imaginary version of them because the imaginary Luddites are silly in a way that no real movement is.

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#174

Post by brightball »

ethbr1 wrote: post #78
brightball wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All churches are full of sinners just like hospitals are full of sick people. You're there to get well.

The difference is that doctors and nurses are certified and policed.

Pastors are as well. Just differently.

Each church has a board of elders who will hire/fire/correct/counsel the pastors. At most protestant churches at least. I can't speak for all churches.

I've seen a board of elders remove a megachurch founding pastor. They take their positions seriously.

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#175

Post by ethbr1 »

brightball wrote: post #174
ethbr1 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that doctors and nurses are certified and policed.

Pastors are as well. Just differently. Each church has a board of elders who will hire/fire/correct/counsel the pastors. At most protestant churches at least. I can't speak for all churches. I've seen a board of elders remove a megachurch founding pastor. They take their positions seriously.

I have more faith in the Protestant and Baptist, more decentralized methods. Catholic monoliths, less so.

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#176

Post by brightball »

ethbr1 wrote: post #175
brightball wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pastors are as well. Just differently. Each church has a board of elders who will hire/fire/correct/counsel the pastors. At most protestant churches at least. I can't speak for all churches. I've seen a board of elders remove a megachurch founding pastor. They take their positions seriously.

I have more faith in the Protestant and Baptist, more decentralized methods. Catholic monoliths, less so.

I can understand that.

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#177

Post by dfxm12 »

Pet_Ant wrote: post #52
wizerdrobe wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know to what degree it’s “a thing” but I know a lot of 30-something punks from my old scene that are now into a kind of homesteading vibe. Moved out to the surrounding countryside as much for economic as ideological reasons. Some are all the way into off-the-grid, home schooling, etc. Nothing says “Fuck the System!” like solar panels and a wood burning stove I guess?

> Nothing says “Fuck the System!” like solar panels and a wood burning stove I guess? Pithily put. I can definitely attest that this is my plan and the plans of a few others I know. Home baked bread and sour dough starter feel pretty anti-corporate to me. That said, I do recognise that going off grid requires heavy machinery and tools that are produced by the biggest of corporations... but somehow Milwaukee tools see…

Milwaukee tools seems less evil than Nike, because Milwaukee is selling you just tools, versus an identity, a brand, a value system etc.

It's funny you bring this up, considering Milwaukee's multi-national parent company got questioned by the same congressional committee over the summer as Nike for using forced labor in their products.

You're also lucky to not have to hear people argue about DeWalt vs Milwaukee (vs Makita, vs Ryobi, it goes on and on)...

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#178

Post by ethbr1 »

OkayPhysicist wrote: post #156
ethbr1 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The central tension is between popularity and counterculture. By definition, you cannot have popular counterculture, as it just becomes "the culture." However, most of the capital assets of culture promotion are also tied to popularity (e.g. mass-market media publishing, advertising). Denied access, counterculture exists in the woods, but most people don't know. Which is why you see truer counterculture move closer t…

That's an interesting theory, but what means of cultural promotion were newly democratized in the 60s?

In the 60s, mass media liberalized pretty quickly in all mediums as decreases in production costs broadened access and led to more experimentation and less ability for a limited set of gatekeepers to police content against historical norms.

F.ex. Motown Records was literally founded in the back of a house. [0]

It's more difficult to say "There's no market for African American music, so we're not going to make any" when someone is technically able to demonstrate otherwise on their own.

Without technical disruption (mostly, in the falling cost and footprint of capable equipment), it could have been business as usual and a lot of ideas would have remained uncirculated.

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motown#West_Grand_Boulevard

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#179

Post by friend_and_foe »

JohnBooty wrote: post #171
friend_and_foe wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it possible your affinity to the blue hair and pronouns subculture prevents you from seriously considering the author's analysis of it? To a gay man or transvestite (as they often called themselves, nothing derogatory meant by it) of yore, surely that movement represented freedom from repression. Today, when bigotry towards homosexuals is socially taboo, what does it mean to the allies, warriors and fluid genders?…

To me it looks exactly like what the author says: mainstream, corporate captured product marketing, in group signalling, an aesthetic subculture... i'm well into middle age now, and i have always thought this about "subculture/counterculture" groups in general -- how are you even rebelling when you all look the same? you're conforming, just to the norms of a smaller group. however, you're missing (at least!) a few ma…

It's not a decision I made, it's just my observation. I could be wrong but of course I don't think so.

I'm not commenting on the politics of sexuality in Nigeria, I'm talking about western societies. I've been around a lot of gay people and transgender individuals, and never have I once seen them in danger in public. Now, I wasn't around in the 80s or 90s, with the gay bashing and what not, and I understand the plight. But they've won as far as I can tell, at least in our society, they've achieved their goals. Coca Cola loves them, they're represented in the executive branch of the US government. And to speak of the recent rise of the fluidgender non binary other gender crowd, I fail to see how that's anything other than subculture signaling.

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#180

Post by bigbillheck »

cooperst wrote: post #139
kibwen wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, it's mainstream pop culture. This is highly dependent on context. In much of the world, it's dangerous to be openly sympathetic to LGBT causes, let alone openly LGBT. Even in much of the US, being openly gay is dangerous, and being openly trans is even more dangerous. A non-binary 16-year-old was murdered in Oklahoma this month; meanwhile, nobody's out here killing Swifties (at least, not yet).

[flagged]

> ... she ...

My understanding is that Nex Benedict used he/they.

Post reply on HN