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Punk is dead and so are we

bananapeel.substack.com

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Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#21

Post by TotalCrackpot »

Gimpei wrote: post #9

I don’t understand how you can devote so many words to the staying power of “capitalism” and not once give any concrete sense of what the economics of an alternative would look like and how you would make it work. The degree to which people microanalyze culture seems bonkers to me. If you don’t like our current economic system, then it’s kind of on you to come up with a viable alternative using empirical evidence. Ni…

Alternative would be libertarian socialism, with economy of some mixture of cooperative economics, decentralized planning, gift economy and library economy.

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#23

Post by ericmcer »

Really good article. Of course Capitalism will package and sell anti-capitalism if that is what makes money. It will try to mirror societies desires, which I don't think is a terrible thing. What should be feared is efforts to manufacture and control what people desire.

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#24

Post by mchinen »

There is a sort of nihilism that emerges when you look deeper at counterculture and it's conformity. Neo recognizing with horror the other neos is a great example. (In that case it only worked out for him because of hollywood's love of love - because he loved trinity so much he was really different from the rest.)

I've often wondered how the leaders of the hippie, punk, and more modern movements would compare to classical and romantic leaders of counterculture, like Thoreau or Voltaire, or even music like Chopin or Palestrina. We do have writers today like David Graeber that do seem against the grain. I suppose a major difference is that infuential people back then didn't seem as concerned with being famous and viral (which makes them more punk than punk), and there were less people that tried to follow them. On the other hand, when you look closer, maybe the difference can be explained by how media and money flows today.

At the extremes, it can seem like the only 'genuine' counterculture is self-sacrificing civil disobedience (e.g. self-immolation, not blocking traffic) or truly destructive (terrorism), because these are not scalable within mainstream culture. There should be a middle ground, but somehow I'm having trouble recognizing it. Perhaps this is because having a sustainable counterculture requires tacitly playing within the rules of the mainstream culture.

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#25

Post by gedy »

I can only comment from my sort of involvement in 80s SoCal punks - most folks were not "political punks" and rejected all authority whether left or right (listen to California Uber Alles), and the clothing and music aesthetics were totally unconventional and abrasive.

Even then there was some internal-ish pressure to align the punks with leftist ideology, but most could really care less and wanted to drop out of society, not "fix it", etc.

Things started changing once the styles and sound started influencing mainstream, and it was no longer seen so outlandish. And it's hard to live outside culture esp if drugs are involved. (Though respect to the Straight Edge movement[0])

If there was a "new" punk-like movement today, it'd need to be "exclusive" in that normies would not want to show up to your gigs or parties, due to aesthetics or beliefs. I think you'd need that feeling of making a choice to drop out of society, so you'd need something really different, almost like Amish punks, ha.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight_edge

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#27

Post by colonwqbang »

TotalCrackpot wrote: post #21
Gimpei wrote: post #9

I don’t understand how you can devote so many words to the staying power of “capitalism” and not once give any concrete sense of what the economics of an alternative would look like and how you would make it work. The degree to which people microanalyze culture seems bonkers to me. If you don’t like our current economic system, then it’s kind of on you to come up with a viable alternative using empirical evidence. Ni…

Alternative would be libertarian socialism, with economy of some mixture of cooperative economics, decentralized planning, gift economy and library economy.

Do you have any good links that explain more?

In my mind the ideas of socialism and libertarianism are polar opposites.

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#28

Post by 0xbadcafebee »

It's easy to link everything to capitalism when you live in the age of capitalism. Cultural phenomena, trends and upheavals happen throughout human history in a variety of ways. The industrial revolution has certainly fueled a new machine for the acceleration and multiplication of culture, but this economic model isn't intrinsically intertwined with culture. Culture is just a product that is sold by capitalism. In communism, culture is also sold, but only one or two varieties are available. The same was true before this, in the West, when christianity was the cultural machine, producing different sects. Before that (and at the same time, in other parts of the world) culture was more ethnic, national and regional. And Folk culture is a constant.

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#29

Post by ericmcer »

Gimpei wrote: post #9

I don’t understand how you can devote so many words to the staying power of “capitalism” and not once give any concrete sense of what the economics of an alternative would look like and how you would make it work. The degree to which people microanalyze culture seems bonkers to me. If you don’t like our current economic system, then it’s kind of on you to come up with a viable alternative using empirical evidence. Ni…

The bit about Cobain's suicide felt like it was probing around something important but blaming it on Capitalism felt a bit off. Cobain would have experienced something similar at any period in history, that is what happens to talented people who rise from the masses. If anything capitalism gave him way more freedom to use his talent how he wanted than any other system would have.

I am not an expert on Nirvana but I would guess his suicide was more about his personal struggles than some grandiose statement about politics and capitalism.

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#30

Post by im_down_w_otp »

csallen wrote: post #20
im_down_w_otp wrote: post #2

I think the author misattributed who the modern era punks would be. At least based on the described framework of what punk counter-culture was about and what it was countering. Given how much of the mainstream is organized around overwrought advertising, influencering, guruing, and being terminally online... it seems like the modern punks would be the counter-culture that prioritizes being offline, being private, and…

I'm not sure this is the same "type" of group. There have always been those who neglect to adopt the technology of the day or buy heavily into the culture, without also buying into some sort of counter-cultural movement. Today it might be those who eschew social media and being terminally online. In the 90s perhaps it was those who limited their TV time. In my view, it would be inaccurate to describe this group as "s…

I'd also expect them not to be luddites, but rather subversive rejectors. This probably isn't an entirely apt example, but think people who use things like PiHole rather than people who never adopted the internet in the first place.
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