Live data from Hacker News

Punk is dead and so are we

bananapeel.substack.com

51–60 of 213 posts

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#51
post #9

I don’t understand how you can devote so many words to the staying power of “capitalism” and not once give any concrete sense of what the economics of an alternative would look like and how you would make it work. The degree to which people microanalyze culture seems bonkers to me. If you don’t like our current economic system, then it’s kind of on you to come up with a viable alternative using empirical evidence. Ni…

Alternative would be libertarian socialism, with economy of some mixture of cooperative economics, decentralized planning, gift economy and library economy.

I don't understand how what you've just said isn't the same as what we would currently call a social democracy with a capitalist economy. Specifically, "decentralized planning" is a synonym of capitalism and the other concepts your using exist already, enabled by the capitalist ethos of allowing the individual to use their capital as they see fit.

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#52
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If an old punk ethic was 'Do It Yourself' (DIY), maybe the modern punk equivalent would be 'Do It Offline' (DIO.)

I don’t know to what degree it’s “a thing” but I know a lot of 30-something punks from my old scene that are now into a kind of homesteading vibe. Moved out to the surrounding countryside as much for economic as ideological reasons. Some are all the way into off-the-grid, home schooling, etc. Nothing says “Fuck the System!” like solar panels and a wood burning stove I guess?

> Nothing says “Fuck the System!” like solar panels and a wood burning stove I guess?

Pithily put. I can definitely attest that this is my plan and the plans of a few others I know. Home baked bread and sour dough starter feel pretty anti-corporate to me.

That said, I do recognise that going off grid requires heavy machinery and tools that are produced by the biggest of corporations... but somehow Milwaukee tools seems less evil than Nike, because Milwaukee is selling you just tools, versus an identity, a brand, a value system etc.

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#53
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's mainstream pop culture. As the author alludes it's trendy even for straight people to emulate gay culture.

> No, it's mainstream pop culture. This is highly dependent on context. In much of the world, it's dangerous to be openly sympathetic to LGBT causes, let alone openly LGBT. Even in much of the US, being openly gay is dangerous, and being openly trans is even more dangerous. A non-binary 16-year-old was murdered in Oklahoma this month; meanwhile, nobody's out here killing Swifties (at least, not yet).

>murdered

That is an utter fabrication.

>Police in the Tulsa suburb have not released a cause of death but said this week that the teenager did not die as a result of injuries from the fight.

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#54

I think the author misattributed who the modern era punks would be. At least based on the described framework of what punk counter-culture was about and what it was countering. Given how much of the mainstream is organized around overwrought advertising, influencering, guruing, and being terminally online... it seems like the modern punks would be the counter-culture that prioritizes being offline, being private, and…

Punk rose to prominence, in part, because of their acceptance of technology. They used technology that was once the expensive and in the domain of conservative corporations that was turned into accessible and cheap ways to disseminate ideas.

Xerox machines were prominently used to create flyers for shows and distribute zines. Cassette tapes were copied and passed around to anyone who wanted one. VHS was used to record shows and distribute other media. Lowered cost for TV transmission meant not only punk was a topic that could be seen on TV but that local access shows could be used to disseminate media further.

"Punk" is tied to the aesthetics of brightly colored hair, Mohawks, patches on jackets, jack boots etc. which coerces anyone who makes claims of being punk in the modern era into a anachronistic pastiche of what punk was in the late 1970s or early 1980s, with washed out "xerox effect" flyers or physical zines. Aesthetics aside, punk was primarily about a DIY ethos of using whatever tools were available to create art, discuss politics or create a scene.

The modern day equivalent exists, we just don't call it "punk" because it doesn't have the aesthetics attached. You want to know what modern day punk-rock looks like? It's not emulating some juvenile interpretation of Meditations, it's standing up Mastodon social networks, using Nostr, advocating for the freedom of Julian Assange, creating custom AI models that diagnose breast cancer, pushing libre/free/open source, creating art installations with custom electronics, and on and on.

There's one aspect of punk, not the whole aspect but one splinter faction, that was defeatist and pretty much dead on arrival. I only skimmed the article but that's the vein of punk rock the article seems to be channeling. Any movement that positions itself as a rejection of culture is doomed to fail, either because it fizzles out or because it becomes incorporated. The measure shouldn't be how contrary a movement is, it should be how it's trying to shape culture for the better.

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#55
post #24

There is a sort of nihilism that emerges when you look deeper at counterculture and it's conformity. Neo recognizing with horror the other neos is a great example. (In that case it only worked out for him because of hollywood's love of love - because he loved trinity so much he was really different from the rest.) I've often wondered how the leaders of the hippie, punk, and more modern movements would compare to clas…

In my opinion, todays true counterculture is conservative religious communities.

There is nother more counter to the cultural moment then being a traditionally moral, upright citizen who doesnt do drugs, doesnt lie, cheat, steal, has their libido under control, is reliable, whose existence is profitable to the rest of the world (not neccessarily economically, just mean someone who contributes more than they take : financially, emotionally, etc)

Thats about as counterculture as you can get.

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#56
post #24

There is a sort of nihilism that emerges when you look deeper at counterculture and it's conformity. Neo recognizing with horror the other neos is a great example. (In that case it only worked out for him because of hollywood's love of love - because he loved trinity so much he was really different from the rest.) I've often wondered how the leaders of the hippie, punk, and more modern movements would compare to clas…

The central tension is between popularity and counterculture.

By definition, you cannot have popular counterculture, as it just becomes "the culture."

However, most of the capital assets of culture promotion are also tied to popularity (e.g. mass-market media publishing, advertising). Denied access, counterculture exists in the woods, but most people don't know.

Which is why you see truer counterculture move closer to popular culture when those assets are (usually temporarily) democratized during technological shifts (e.g. the 1960s and 1990s).

But hey, maybe I just miss zines...

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#58
I don't piss on anyone, regardless of their age, for looking out at the world and wishing for something different, something better.

Even approaching 60 years old I am still doing the same kind of searching. It's not a fashion for me, I don't wear it on my sleeve. But perhaps even because I am older, I am increasingly unhappy with the bed that was already made for me when I was born.

So often I find myself wondering (sometimes aloud), "How did the world get to the way it is now? If you were to design, plan a society you would never have made it as complicated as this."

It's as though we begrudgingly go along with it because what else can you do? I think when you're young you try to fight it, and therein lies the punk spirit. But you eventually muster out of the revolution and, tired of tilting against windmills, you instead try to make it work for you.

Regardless, I still don't like it and still try to envision what changes would make the world a better place.

Re: Punk is dead and so are we

#59

[flagged]

Partly, I guess in effect at least, but I would reject people are embracing lgbt rights because it is "cool" on the whole. It's more like, would you say women's lib was this type of fad? Or black rights? Etc.

I think the author is writing specifically about fashion and pop culture as a component of capitalism. The author would probably say that making pants for women was an effort to expand into a new demographic of customers, not to expand women's rights. Essentially, all movements are merely a product. Civil rights are the byproduct. And following that theory, the author predicts that LGBT culture, as a fashion product, will fade. For example, we'll probably stop seeing the force feed of obligatory LGBT scenes in film, to be replaced with obligatory scenes instead.
Post reply on HN