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Microsoft is driving users away

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Re: Microsoft is driving users away

#221

Post by bediger4000 »

npteljes wrote: post #199
zeroCalories wrote: post #34

It's amazing to me that Microsoft messed up Windows. All they had to do was not not change things, but they continued to force junk on me that I don't need, take power away from me, and spy on me. Honestly MacOS isn't much better. Linux is still crap software, but we've reached the point where most things can be done on Linux, so good riddance. I hope that more people switch and Linux continues to improve. There's ac…

People won't change, because people don't use their PC for the OS. This is why it's important to have systems that bundle Linux, for example, with the UX worked out as much as possible, like how it is on the Steam Deck.

Sure Windows is for the most part, libWord, libExcel and libPowerPoint.

Linux (and BSDs) are important to people who want to do things that are hard to do in a tightly integrated office suite.

Re: Microsoft is driving users away

#222

Post by earlone »

slooonz wrote: post #202
earlone wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes agree. I started using Linux (Gentoo) as student 20 years ago to learn LKMs programming, and with my main Desktop being Windows currently, I give a new try to linux distros every year. I see Linux distros improve year after year, but they are still light years away from providing a good user experience. And even if I don't agree with many Windows 11 updates (like the cumulating number of services required to run…

> they are still light years away from providing a good user experience I really don’t get this. All modern desktop environment (OSX, Windows, KDE, Gnome) looks like very similar in terms of user experience quality to me. All are different, true, which is why I can understand will exists. But I will very hard pressed to justify "actually, x is better than y" (yet alone "light years away"), for any pair (x, y). Can yo…

Well, as you say, desktop environments look the same. But they don't feel the same. When we talk about UI/UX we talk about look and feel. I've installed Ubuntu & MX Linux to reply to your question, here are random issues I get with the default setup: why do I get no sound when I play a youtube video (it works on one distro, broken on the other one) ? why do I have no option to change the refresh rate of my monitor to more than 60Hz ? Therefore where is the 120hz smooth scrolling ? Why is my keyboard layout set to english by default while I am located in Europe ? How am I supposed to configure my WIFI password if my keyboard layout is incorrect by default ? Why does my CPU fan runs at full speed while I am just writing this text currently with no other user task in background ? If I use a laptop with a second keyboard (bluetooth), why aren't my keystrokes taken into account when the system asks me to confirm the reboot by pressing "enter" (I need to reach the laptop keyboard since the bluetooth one is not taken into account) ? Why does my browser need to reload its cache & configuration from my drive each time I boot my computer; why isn't it loaded in RAM by default ? Why do I still have the first mouse wheel scrolling event ignored in the Chrome/Chromium web browsers in most distros I try, while this bug has been driving users nuts for years while the solution is already known ? I use a dual monitor setup, why does the system displays some glitches at first boot ? Why doesn't it doesn't remember my primary screen when I log off the session, and shows the login prompt on the other screen ? Why does the system hangs when I run a game like counter strike 2 and I try to switch back to the desktop ? Why does the system get super slow while it tries to recompile shaders, making it impossible to open a web browser ? and I'm not even mentioning the issues installing/uninstalling proprietary video drivers which is still a huge mess. For my usage, the Linux Desktop feel experience is still pure hell currently... although I really wish it were good.

Re: Microsoft is driving users away

#223

Post by Propelloni »

nickelpro wrote: post #205
overgard wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're overestimating the importance of the revenue generated and underestimating the importance of mindshare and people caring about their system. If the next generation of creators (IE, coders, designers, etc.) grow up on macOS and linux then Microsoft has a real problem down the line. The Windows monopoly has been VERY good to them, they would be foolish to lose it by angering their most passionate users e…

> I think you're overestimating the importance of the revenue generated It is literally impossible to do this. Revenue is the only thing that matters when measuring markets. If it doesn't affect the bottom line, it does not matter. Passion does not sell OEM installs or license keys. Creators and hackers didn't buy MS products in appreciable numbers to begin with (compared to consumer and enterprise markets), so to th…

You are certainly right about revenue. You say you are in enterprise IT, I used to be there. I actually built and was responsible for the IT of one of the few larger "Linux only" enterprises in the mid-2010s in Germany (like you said, Fedora and Gnome2. Ubuntu and Gnome2 for us). When I left we were talking about a 1000 seats. Needless to say, it worked mostly flawless. Yet we always had the same "battle" with new joiners, unfamiliar work environments. We had to move accounting (20 seats) to MS Windows so that accountants would come to work for us. No matter that the 20 seats caused three times the support compared to the Linux seats, no accounting is still worse ;)

Anyhow, that's what Microsoft is abandoning. Familiarity. If young people do not learn MS Windows and MS Office during school or at home, the grip on the enterprise will vanish. We already see it in tech-oriented departments, where Macbooks reign supreme. I for one wouldn't like to use a Macbook, but I sincerely hope that MS grip on enterprises is broken sooner rather than later.

Re: Microsoft is driving users away

#224

Post by tux1968 »

Sayrus wrote: post #219
tux1968 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I hope that more people switch It's reached a point where it no longer really matters. Linux is good enough, usable enough, and supported enough, that getting more users won't change much. It might actually be worse if a lot more users, with a lot of wide-ranging needs and demands, switch to Linux. At least, I am happy with the current state of Linux usability, and no longer care to evangelize the benefits of being…

My own experience doesn't reflect that. I've been using Linux for work for years and tried to switch from Windows to Linux for games. NVIDIA drivers and game support on Linux is not an experience I'd recommend to anyone without experience. On laptop it's awesome, unless you have both an iGPU and dedicated GPU, then switching properly is a pain. WiFi drivers are a hit or miss: some cards are great, some others are not…

I think most people eventually figure out hardware that works fine under Linux. Granted, nvidia is still a sore point, and it doesn't really have a viable alternative for some important scenarios. But in the end, it's usually not that hard to make work, many (millions?) people do it. It might not be slick, but it's fine. And Intel iGPU support is basically flawless if you have more modest needs.

Can't comment on the problems you have had. My own experience has been almost without issue for many years now, using Fedora. YMMV.

Re: Microsoft is driving users away

#225

Post by pierat »

whiplash451 wrote: post #142
Animats wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's amazing to me that Microsoft messed up Windows. It is. At Windows 7, they pretty much had desktops right. Everything mostly worked. They'd finally fixed the crashing problems. (How? The Static Driver Verifier validated that third-party kernel drivers would not crash the rest of the system, and a classifier applied to crash dumps routed similar crash dumps to the same maintainer.) The UI was reasonable for a de…

> you could turn off auto-update I would not mess with that bit these days

There is a difference between:

1. Updates have been applied (in the middle of your crucial thing). Reboot in 60 seconds. Fuck you if you think you can cancel haha.

2. Updates for the following packages are available. Apply: Now or later.

Windows is #1. Linux is #2.

Linux does it right. Sometimes, you're in the middle of something, and delaying makes sense. But shutting down on a 3d print job, or in the middle of a game session fucking sucks. And, I absolutely despise software with "Mothership knows best" crap. (It's also why I despise Ubuntu's SNAP. Same shit.)

Re: Microsoft is driving users away

#226

Post by orwin »

TheLoafOfBread wrote: post #149
datagrimx wrote: post #124

For full Disclosure, I once upon was a software engineer at Microsoft. I witnessed first hand the evil decisions around Windows. I left Microsoft in 2006 but I am still part of the Alumni Network. IMO Microsoft can gain users back by: * Not requiring a Microsoft Account * Ending all data/telemetry collection * Not forcing Edge on its users * Stop releasing improved UI updates every week * Make bash, zsh, ... native f…

> Make bash, zsh, ... native for Windows Why? There is PowerShell, able to run on Linux and MacOS. And compared to Bash it is actually readable language.

I will explain my point of view, please comment on if you think my view is fair, or if I'm wrong.

My issue with powershell is that it isn't really a shell language, or rather, not a tty language. I do think it's way better than bash, but I do not want to use it like bash, I want to use it like AWK, but for my system. I want it to use it only in scripts, or with an exec in a command line at worst. I think bash have better built-in for ttys, and is faster/more reactive (that might be my windows config but I don't think so).

I want to navigate with bash, and script with powershell (which I do to be completely honest, but I'd like to do that in a windows terminal and not wsl).

Re: Microsoft is driving users away

#227

Post by MattPalmer1086 »

earlone wrote: post #106
firesteelrain wrote: post #4

As much as I like Linux, tides won’t be shifting for desktop to Linux. It will be Microsoft Windows for years to come

Yes agree. I started using Linux (Gentoo) as student 20 years ago to learn LKMs programming, and with my main Desktop being Windows currently, I give a new try to linux distros every year. I see Linux distros improve year after year, but they are still light years away from providing a good user experience. And even if I don't agree with many Windows 11 updates (like the cumulating number of services required to run…

It's interesting hearing such diametrically opposed experiences. I've been using Linux as my main desktop for over 20 years.

I find Windows to be an unholy confusing mess these days. Want to set the microphone sound level; go to sound settings - nope, not there. Probably in some other legacy control panel I guess.

By contrast, most things I need to configure in Linux are in a single place. File copying is much faster than Windows. Updates don't prevent me from working and require multiple reboots. It crashes less often.

Anyway, a lot is probably just what you're used to. I'm sure I excuse many Linux failings because it doesn't bother me and I know how to work around it.

Re: Microsoft is driving users away

#228

Post by metaltyphoon »

datagrimx wrote: post #169
TheLoafOfBread wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Make bash, zsh, ... native for Windows Why? There is PowerShell, able to run on Linux and MacOS. And compared to Bash it is actually readable language.

IMO PowerShell is horrible. It is it an object, or not an object. You don't know, unless you know. How about operators? They make ZERO sense (-eq). They went supreme extreme on namespaces. I could write a paper on how bad PowerShell is. You can keep it. I'll stick with zsh or bash.

Ehh debatable. Just two different philosophies. I do think objects > text.

Re: Microsoft is driving users away

#229

Post by cedilla »

pierat wrote: post #225
whiplash451 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you could turn off auto-update I would not mess with that bit these days

There is a difference between: 1. Updates have been applied (in the middle of your crucial thing). Reboot in 60 seconds. Fuck you if you think you can cancel haha. 2. Updates for the following packages are available. Apply: Now or later. Windows is #1. Linux is #2. Linux does it right. Sometimes, you're in the middle of something, and delaying makes sense. But shutting down on a 3d print job, or in the middle of a ga…

The only thing is that most users don't know at all, or don't care. If the system doesn't eventually force them to update, they just won't. That's alright in the first order if you just don't care that they will get hacked, but we know what happened in the XP times - the machines join a botnet and attack everyone else.

If you're work PC forces you to reboot "right now", that's a corporate policy or some shitty "endpoint protection" tool. Windows 10 / 11 always ask you when you want to apply the update.

Re: Microsoft is driving users away

#230

Post by firecall »

zeroCalories wrote: post #34

It's amazing to me that Microsoft messed up Windows. All they had to do was not not change things, but they continued to force junk on me that I don't need, take power away from me, and spy on me. Honestly MacOS isn't much better. Linux is still crap software, but we've reached the point where most things can be done on Linux, so good riddance. I hope that more people switch and Linux continues to improve. There's ac…

MS Edge is the most egregious offender, for me.

There’s a nice UI under all of the offensive promos and news they force onto you.

My kid just got a new school laptop, preloaded by the school.

He opens up Edge and Boom! It’s spamming him with fake Ads and horror news stories about war.

Thanks for that MS. It’s like they really do not understand what made Google Search so popular back in the say.

FWIW, I do think macOS is a lot better :-)

Also, the world of Linux GUIs really needs to pick up its game. They just never seem very good; accomplished, reliable, feature competitive.

Today’s Ubuntu UI/UX isn’t even competitive with macOS from a decade ago IMHO and for my use cases :-)

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