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Selfish reasons to want more humans

rootsofprogress.org

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Re: Selfish reasons to want more humans

#381

Post by x86x87 »

jaysonelliot wrote: post #317

This is an absolutely terrifying perspective. The planet can realistically support about one billion human beings. It was only the Haber–Bosch process in the early 1900s that made it possible to grow enough food to maintain the 8 billion humans we have today. At the time, it seemed like an incredible humanitarian advance, feeding so many more people than before, and providing higher profits for farmers, boosting the…

Lol. Save the planet? The planet is going to be fine. We need to save ourselves! How should we do this? Less people of course /s

Re: Selfish reasons to want more humans

#382

Post by moralestapia »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #379
moralestapia wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't look at it as a "you" thing. What I'm saying between lines is that almost nobody with a high standard of life would be willing to give up on whatever luxuries they enjoy to give a chance to "some other people in a remote place" which is a very abstract concept and quite detached from one's own reality. You like drones and robots, right? That's good, not an issue with that on itself. Now give 8 billion people dr…

Unfortunately you keep making it a "you" thing with your argument and are ignorant of the situation. These are robots I use for work that I keep in my house. Good luck

It's not about "you". Look at the big picture, bud.

Re: Selfish reasons to want more humans

#383

Post by pcthrowaway »

light_hue_1 wrote: post #371
al_borland wrote: post #369

I often wonder how much the average return on the stock market, which everyone with a retirement plan depends on, has simply been a function of a population growth. If the population shrinks, economies will have to contract, the market will need to fall in proportion to the people available to buy stuff, and the compound interest gravy train for a comfortable retirement will end. This is my selfish reason for wanting…

Certainly had hasn't hurt Japan's stock market. The Nikkei is at an all time high, back to the lofty heights of the 80s. Retirement in Japan is also wonderful. You should check it out.

Is it really at an all-time high? Adjusted for inflation?

Re: Selfish reasons to want more humans

#384

Post by doodlebugging »

CatWChainsaw wrote: post #259
doodlebugging wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OT but I was just wondering, where are the Snowdens of yesteryear?

Probably in prison (or dead) (or dead in prison with the authorities refusing to relinquish your body to your family for "reasons"). Especially if by Snowdens you're specifically referring to whistleblowers/leakers of state secrets rather than anyone speaking truth to power.

Recognizing that there are lots of Snowdens out there, I was referring to a different one and half expected that to be lost on some HN members and on everyone who hasn't read the story.

It's another case of IYKYK. Like an almost secret handshake between those who have something in common but have never met. Or a shared recollection that manifests as a hearty chuckle as the memories come back into focus.

Re: Selfish reasons to want more humans

#385

Post by dash2 »

throwanem wrote: post #250
dash2 wrote: post #248

People saying "he doesn't address the downsides" could read the three pages on the same site which do address the downsides, and which are prominently linked right at the start of the essay: https://rootsofprogress.org/unsustainable https://rootsofprogress.org/catastrophic-resource-shortages https://rootsofprogress.org/can-growth-continue-ignite-talk

Everything in those links could have been more concisely expressed in a single sentence, short enough even to make a pithy quote, drawn from one of them: "The question of severe externalities is interesting and difficult, but let’s set it aside for the moment."

That’s completely untrue. For, example, the first of them has a lot of interesting and relevant history about how the decline of one scarce resource motivates the search for others.

Re: Selfish reasons to want more humans

#386

Post by ZephyrP »

lukas099 wrote: post #350
adrian_b wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That depends a lot on how you define "good conditions". My grandparents did not have television or computers, but they (and most people from their village) had a much bigger house and garden than I could ever afford and they were eating much better food than I can find anywhere in a city now, despite having nominally much lower revenues than I have today. Some of their tastiest fruit cultivars might have completely d…

Re: cultivars. Some have probably died out. Others have probably gotten better. Look at apples; my parents talk about how the only apples they had were red delicious and granny smith. Now we have insane diversity of delicious apples without even having to grow them ourselves.

I traveled through a town in California known for it's apple orchards. There, I ate a 'Hawkeye' apple, which was said to be an ancestor of the 'Red Delicious'.

The 'Hawkeye' isn't my new favorite, but was good enough to appreciate how much it's shameful descendent had dishonored the name of this otherwise respectable apple family.

Re: Selfish reasons to want more humans

#387

Post by Elinvynia »

martindbp wrote: post #331
jaysonelliot wrote: post #317

This is an absolutely terrifying perspective. The planet can realistically support about one billion human beings. It was only the Haber–Bosch process in the early 1900s that made it possible to grow enough food to maintain the 8 billion humans we have today. At the time, it seemed like an incredible humanitarian advance, feeding so many more people than before, and providing higher profits for farmers, boosting the…

It's interesting how malthusians never take matters into their own hands. It's always too many of "others".

To be fair, suicide is illegal pretty much everywhere.

Re: Selfish reasons to want more humans

#388

Post by SamoyedFurFluff »

strangattractor wrote: post #103
defrost wrote: post #22

More ambitious projects need a certain critical mass of resources behind them. Ancient Egyptian civilization built a large irrigation system to make the best use of the Nile floodwaters for agriculture, a feat that would not have been possible to a small tribe or chiefdom. This doesn't mean people, we're no longer bound by labour intensive solutions. I live in a single state with a tiny population that mines and ship…

The 2 most prominent proponents of this idea happen to have the resources (money) that will allow them to avoid most of the downsides a larger population would create. Great for them bad for me. There are plenty enough geniuses in existence today. They cannot be utilized because they live in shitty conditions created by the too large population we already have. As others have pointed out consideration of of negative…

> There are plenty enough geniuses in existence today. They cannot be utilized because they live in shitty conditions created by the too large population we already have

I’m pretty sure that the shitty conditions are not caused by a too large population of humans more broadly. If society took the wealth of a few billionaires and distributed it to the most impoverished I think a lot of our overpopulation woes would vanish overnight. Things like tuberculosis medicine costing hundreds of dollars isn’t a population problem.

Re: Selfish reasons to want more humans

#389

Post by yhavr »

I call it bullshit.

Arguments like "more progress" and "more geniuses" would make sense only if global population manages "geniuses" and "progress" efficiently. Which in fact is completely opposite. Homo sapiens brains are evolved for small population size, and unable to comprehend the modern structures involving millions of people. As a consequence, billions of already existing humans still don't have access to proper education, economy or tech scene to unlock their potential. So the more humans you bring, the more potential Einsteins will stuck in Congolese villages, that's it. Even "developed" countries, from what I observe are quite far from the ideal talent-unlocking - they still have crowded classes, non-motivated teachers and fixed curriculum. So millions will be (and already are) also stuck in "boring 9-5" "paying their student debs" even don't knowing their full potential.

Re: Selfish reasons to want more humans

#390

Post by wonderwonder »

xipho wrote: post #312
wonderwonder wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who gets to decide who can reproduce and who cant?

Our climate and ecosystems. See any introductory 101 ecology class where you learn all about the trivial ways populations can grow, fluctuate and crash. Disease, access to "energy", reproductive strategy and potential, population demographics, ecosystem stability, all existed with out humans around. Perhaps the big reason to have fewer humans around is that we inject "chaos" into many of these well understood dynamic…

Will "Our climate and ecosystems" have human representatives who relay these decisions and enforce them?

"akin to believing in gods, and perhaps that might not end well" Mankind has believed in gods since essentially the beginning, hundreds of thousands of years and during that time has risen to become the dominant species on the planet. During this rise, human quality of life, and life expectation have continues to improve reaching its current high point. Anyone telling you different is a victim of political propaganda. There are always hot spots on the earth but overall we are doing great.

Note: There have been a couple of empires that were openly athiestic, the USSR and Communist China. How did that work out for its peoples?

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