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Selfish reasons to want more humans

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Re: Selfish reasons to want more humans

#371

Post by light_hue_1 »

al_borland wrote: post #369

I often wonder how much the average return on the stock market, which everyone with a retirement plan depends on, has simply been a function of a population growth. If the population shrinks, economies will have to contract, the market will need to fall in proportion to the people available to buy stuff, and the compound interest gravy train for a comfortable retirement will end. This is my selfish reason for wanting…

Certainly had hasn't hurt Japan's stock market. The Nikkei is at an all time high, back to the lofty heights of the 80s.

Retirement in Japan is also wonderful. You should check it out.

Re: Selfish reasons to want more humans

#372

Post by toss1 »

jaysonelliot wrote: post #317

This is an absolutely terrifying perspective. The planet can realistically support about one billion human beings. It was only the Haber–Bosch process in the early 1900s that made it possible to grow enough food to maintain the 8 billion humans we have today. At the time, it seemed like an incredible humanitarian advance, feeding so many more people than before, and providing higher profits for farmers, boosting the…

Yup. This is absolutely, mind-bogglingly, stupid.

Start with his firs real argument: "More Geniuses" and the resultant more good inventions, etc.

Then consider the corollary is more stupidity, adn the quote attrib to Einstein:

>> "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe!"

The damage wreaked by more stupid people can, and historically has repeatedly overcome the good done by geniuses.

The author also overlooks the ability of current and emerging technology to magnify the effect of genius, starting with Steve Jobs' 'computers are bicycles for the mind' analogy.

No need to continue with the rest of this shallow drivel arguing to create a disaster. Wow.

Re: Selfish reasons to want more humans

#373

Post by moralestapia »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #370
moralestapia wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument is good but is also half-baked. Sure, there's plenty of inequality and bad[1] resource allocation throughout the planet. >The concept that we’re resource constrained to the extent that we’re beyond the carrying capacity of the world is beyond ridiculous We definitely are beyond the carrying capacity of the world, if we want to guarantee a high standard of life for everybody here. 99.9999% of humans will…

So I see you want to go personal with this in order to try and call me a hypocrite? Is that where you want to go with this cause I promise you it's not going to go how you want it to

Don't look at it as a "you" thing.

What I'm saying between lines is that almost nobody with a high standard of life would be willing to give up on whatever luxuries they enjoy to give a chance to "some other people in a remote place" which is a very abstract concept and quite detached from one's own reality.

You like drones and robots, right? That's good, not an issue with that on itself. Now give 8 billion people drones and robots, that's where your logic comes down. If we only had drones and robots for 0.1% of the total population, who should get to enjoy them? Then this whole thing gets hairy. And bringing more people into the equation will not alleviate that problem, it would only make it worse.

Re: Selfish reasons to want more humans

#374

Post by seanmcdirmid »

sokoloff wrote: post #230
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s either labor or capital (to buy/dev those machines). Frankly, if it’s capital and we haven’t transitioned to something closer to socialism or even communism, it isn’t going to end very well for us workers.

History suggests that communism doesn’t end very well for workers, arguably even less well.

Oh, I don’t think it would work very well now. My point is when capital is so powerful that workers aren’t really needed anymore. Then something drastic has to happen, because at that point capitalism can’t push society forward anymore (given the incentives it works with).

Re: Selfish reasons to want more humans

#375

Post by throwawaygal7 »

light_hue_1 wrote: post #371
al_borland wrote: post #369

I often wonder how much the average return on the stock market, which everyone with a retirement plan depends on, has simply been a function of a population growth. If the population shrinks, economies will have to contract, the market will need to fall in proportion to the people available to buy stuff, and the compound interest gravy train for a comfortable retirement will end. This is my selfish reason for wanting…

Certainly had hasn't hurt Japan's stock market. The Nikkei is at an all time high, back to the lofty heights of the 80s. Retirement in Japan is also wonderful. You should check it out.

Didn't it take thirty years to get back there?

Re: Selfish reasons to want more humans

#376

Post by al_borland »

light_hue_1 wrote: post #371
al_borland wrote: post #369

I often wonder how much the average return on the stock market, which everyone with a retirement plan depends on, has simply been a function of a population growth. If the population shrinks, economies will have to contract, the market will need to fall in proportion to the people available to buy stuff, and the compound interest gravy train for a comfortable retirement will end. This is my selfish reason for wanting…

Certainly had hasn't hurt Japan's stock market. The Nikkei is at an all time high, back to the lofty heights of the 80s. Retirement in Japan is also wonderful. You should check it out.

How much of this is due to globalization and Americans buying a lot of products from Japan? If the global population reaches a peak, or population growth is centered in areas without much money, would that still hold up?

Re: Selfish reasons to want more humans

#377

Post by toomuchtodo »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #340
jaysonelliot wrote: post #317

This is an absolutely terrifying perspective. The planet can realistically support about one billion human beings. It was only the Haber–Bosch process in the early 1900s that made it possible to grow enough food to maintain the 8 billion humans we have today. At the time, it seemed like an incredible humanitarian advance, feeding so many more people than before, and providing higher profits for farmers, boosting the…

There’s a Delta flight that is flying exclusively for the pleasure of a tiny group of people who want to watch the eclipse for multiple hours https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39447603 The concept that we’re resource constrained to the extent that we’re beyond the carrying capacity of the world is beyond ridiculous We have a greed, fear and distribution problem, not a production problem Nobody needs a Ferrari when…

There is nothing wrong with that Delta eclipse viewing flight so long as they had mandated direct air carbon capture offsets to offset the flight. The fact that they haven't is the problem, not the flight itself. Take issue with the externalities dumped elsewhere, not on the activity. If you pay the fully loaded costs, by all means, partake in your CO2 emission activity (beef, air travel, etc). Current DAC cost is ~$800-1300/ton of CO2 sequestered. That is the cost of these activities. The fact that people don't want to pay that for luxury activities is the greed, not the activity itself.

Humanity has been living on credit by way of not paying fully loaded costs, in a variety of ways (entitlement programs and economic systems depending on never ending growth, CO2 emissions and cheap energy, plastics, and so on). The bill is coming due, and there will be sadness.

> Don’t complain about the state of the world unless you’re actively fixing it

Trying! We should team up.

Re: Selfish reasons to want more humans

#378

Post by mdorazio »

al_borland wrote: post #369

I often wonder how much the average return on the stock market, which everyone with a retirement plan depends on, has simply been a function of a population growth. If the population shrinks, economies will have to contract, the market will need to fall in proportion to the people available to buy stuff, and the compound interest gravy train for a comfortable retirement will end. This is my selfish reason for wanting…

It's worth considering that stock market valuations are supposed to be driven by revenue and profit, not by population (valuations have gotten completely out of whack since the financial system effectively broke in 2008). There are multiple ways to do this - one is certainly to increase the population, but another is to increase productivity per person in conjunction with expenditure per person. i.e. The same number of people doing more with less and living more lavish lifestyles as a result.

Re: Selfish reasons to want more humans

#379

Post by AndrewKemendo »

moralestapia wrote: post #373
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I see you want to go personal with this in order to try and call me a hypocrite? Is that where you want to go with this cause I promise you it's not going to go how you want it to

Don't look at it as a "you" thing. What I'm saying between lines is that almost nobody with a high standard of life would be willing to give up on whatever luxuries they enjoy to give a chance to "some other people in a remote place" which is a very abstract concept and quite detached from one's own reality. You like drones and robots, right? That's good, not an issue with that on itself. Now give 8 billion people dr…

Unfortunately you keep making it a "you" thing with your argument and are ignorant of the situation. These are robots I use for work that I keep in my house.

Good luck

Re: Selfish reasons to want more humans

#380

Post by AndrewKemendo »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #377
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a Delta flight that is flying exclusively for the pleasure of a tiny group of people who want to watch the eclipse for multiple hours https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39447603 The concept that we’re resource constrained to the extent that we’re beyond the carrying capacity of the world is beyond ridiculous We have a greed, fear and distribution problem, not a production problem Nobody needs a Ferrari when…

There is nothing wrong with that Delta eclipse viewing flight so long as they had mandated direct air carbon capture offsets to offset the flight. The fact that they haven't is the problem, not the flight itself. Take issue with the externalities dumped elsewhere, not on the activity. If you pay the fully loaded costs, by all means, partake in your CO2 emission activity (beef, air travel, etc). Current DAC cost is ~$…

Agreed!

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