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I'm calling this Bubble 2.0, and it's ready to burst

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Re: I'm calling this Bubble 2.0, and it's ready to burst

#71
post #48
post #43

I have a theory about bubbles: It's relatively easy to spot that you're in one, but it's very hard to pinpoint what sort of bubble it is. I'll explain... During the lead up the 2008 debt crisis I saw a lot of people talking about how house prices had been going up year on year and questioning whether we were in a property bubble. There was a debate though. Demand for housing was strong (partly due to population growt…

Bubbles require huge flows of investment cash to grow. You can't miss that scale of growth. They don't sneak up on you. What's hard is determining the point at which the growth is legitimate and at which point it's fad investment/fraud. It was easy to see huge flows of cash into tech in the dot com bubble. It was easy to see huge flows of cash into real estate and the financial sector in our most-recent bubble. But t…

It's actually relatively easy to see when it's become fad/fraud driven. The hard part is predicting when the music is going to stop, because that's controlled by the people investing. Some of the best times to invest in a bubble come during the final frenzy. Warren Buffett was absolutely correct that the dot com bubble was vapid, but he still lost money betting that way. People were predicting in 2003 that the housing market would crash by 2005, with detailed and accurate predictions about how the crash would happen, just two years too early. It is quite clear that the Australian (and, I've heard, the Canadian) housing market is in a bubble, but not so clear how long it's going to go on.

One person who seems to know how to think about these things is George Soros. His New Paradigm for Financial Markets is a good read on this question.

Re: I'm calling this Bubble 2.0, and it's ready to burst

#72
post #25
post #5

Unfortunately I'm starting to agree with the bubble 2.0. Last year I didn't believe it that much, but this year I'm starting to see crazy company evaluations, highly inflated that don't generate any revenue at all, so I don't know how can they be worth billions of dollars, but I know math and little about economics. But if bursts, it's a good thing. It brings perspective, a thing that's missing a lot these days, wher…

So let's be clear about this: these kinds of startups are arbitrary containers for investment dollars. They could be corn, or property, or jelly futures. But as it happens, technology companies are where a lot of people are putting their money right now. As a result, it's not the startups with the secure bottom line that are getting investment: it's shiny startups that happen to be very popular. Because those are the…

Resource plays - particularly natural gas?

Re: I'm calling this Bubble 2.0, and it's ready to burst

#73
post #25
post #5

Unfortunately I'm starting to agree with the bubble 2.0. Last year I didn't believe it that much, but this year I'm starting to see crazy company evaluations, highly inflated that don't generate any revenue at all, so I don't know how can they be worth billions of dollars, but I know math and little about economics. But if bursts, it's a good thing. It brings perspective, a thing that's missing a lot these days, wher…

So let's be clear about this: these kinds of startups are arbitrary containers for investment dollars. They could be corn, or property, or jelly futures. But as it happens, technology companies are where a lot of people are putting their money right now. As a result, it's not the startups with the secure bottom line that are getting investment: it's shiny startups that happen to be very popular. Because those are the…

We will see the bubble deflate a bit when FB doesn't hit its target valuation, and it will either pop at that point or it will pop when one of:

* LinkedIn busts

* Zynga busts

* Google sees a dip

Happen.

Re: I'm calling this Bubble 2.0, and it's ready to burst

#74
post #45

A startup bubble is the best thing that could possibly happen. Look at it this way. There are plenty of talented engineers, designers, and entrepreneurs out there trying to build the next big thing. Due to the incredible scale and reach of the internet economy, those who succeed will become fabulously wealthy. But most will fail (or at least not reach that scale) due to various circumstances---a misstep in execution,…

In a tech bubble, capital does not chase engineering talent; it chases whatever shiny thing resembles the last shiny thing that made headlines. And when the bubble bursts, the entire sector goes hungry for capital, even companies which, in a more sober market, would be recognized as good prospects for growth.

AKA the AI Winter...

Re: I'm calling this Bubble 2.0, and it's ready to burst

#75
post #44

I thought one of the characteristics of a bubble -- almost a pre-requisite -- was for the money of the general public to be flowing in. If things like this poetry IPO idea haven't happened and garnered piles of cash from unwitting investors throwing money into a market they don't understand in a herd mentality ... how exactly is it a sign of anything other than a goofy idea?

"I thought one of the characteristics of a bubble -- almost a pre-requisite -- was for the money of the general public to be flowing in."

The recent US "JOBS" bill included "Loosening regulations on small businesses that wish to raise capital, including through crowdfunding, while retaining investor protections." aimed at getting more of the general public's money flowing into early-stage ventures.

Given its timing, it likely hasn't played a role in the bubble to date, but it's clear that those behind that language in the bill want to inflate a bubble.

Re: I'm calling this Bubble 2.0, and it's ready to burst

#76
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bubbles require huge flows of investment cash to grow. You can't miss that scale of growth. They don't sneak up on you. What's hard is determining the point at which the growth is legitimate and at which point it's fad investment/fraud. It was easy to see huge flows of cash into tech in the dot com bubble. It was easy to see huge flows of cash into real estate and the financial sector in our most-recent bubble. But t…

It's actually relatively easy to see when it's become fad/fraud driven. The hard part is predicting when the music is going to stop, because that's controlled by the people investing. Some of the best times to invest in a bubble come during the final frenzy. Warren Buffett was absolutely correct that the dot com bubble was vapid, but he still lost money betting that way. People were predicting in 2003 that the housin…

You're right about the Canadian housing market; There are those predicting it is in a bubble, the most vocal of whom is a former government MP blogging at http://greaterfool.ca .

The funny thing is that even after watching the carnage in the US housing market, people here don't believe it. I hear countless homeowners talking about housing is the best investment you can make, prices won't fall, it is different here, etc, etc.

Re: I'm calling this Bubble 2.0, and it's ready to burst

#77
post #50
post #43

I have a theory about bubbles: It's relatively easy to spot that you're in one, but it's very hard to pinpoint what sort of bubble it is. I'll explain... During the lead up the 2008 debt crisis I saw a lot of people talking about how house prices had been going up year on year and questioning whether we were in a property bubble. There was a debate though. Demand for housing was strong (partly due to population growt…

Maybe it's not a bubble per se, maybe it's just overinvestment? The world economy really sucks right now, and people are seeking havens for their cash. The tech industry is one of the few bright spots in the world economy, and there's an evergreen hope of some runaway hit. So it could be possible for there to be overinvestment even in the face of widespread skepticism. We also have a lot of supercool mobile electroni…

I agree wholeheartedly and would point people towards Chris Dixon's article on the topic.[0]

Specifically, I think we're witnessing early-stage overinvestment. This has been anecdotally validated by Dixon and Fred Wilson, who state that companies are struggling to follow up blowout seed rounds. "Anecdotes" and all that, but this fits with Neil's idea above (not the one on a Chinese Oppression Bubble, though :P).

[0] http://cdixon.org/2012/04/29/is-it-a-tech-bubble/

Re: I'm calling this Bubble 2.0, and it's ready to burst

#78
post #5

Unfortunately I'm starting to agree with the bubble 2.0. Last year I didn't believe it that much, but this year I'm starting to see crazy company evaluations, highly inflated that don't generate any revenue at all, so I don't know how can they be worth billions of dollars, but I know math and little about economics. But if bursts, it's a good thing. It brings perspective, a thing that's missing a lot these days, wher…

We're 12 years past the .com bubble. A large portion of the people who're creating and moving money today are in their twenties, they didn't experience 1999 in an economic point of view so there are no signals for them. Having said that, let's not forget that a lot of the uncharted terrain from 1999 is now thoroughly explored with a microscope. If you're talking about a bubble, don't forget to mention which subset of…

The financiers are, in general, folks that lived through the dotcom bust. That's the perplexing part right now. You'd think they would know better.

Re: I'm calling this Bubble 2.0, and it's ready to burst

#79
As the old saying goes, history never repeats itself, but it often rhymes.

Asset bubbles occur when people are more interested in acquiring assets rather than effort to acquire the money used to buy the assets. Basically, people start throwing money around just to get that asset.

It usually occurs when money is easily acquired through loans, etc, and as the asset prices increase, the general idea is "I can borrow the money, make some money on the asset, and then pay back the loan".

Usually a lot of delusional math occurs that convince people that the price they are paying is actually "cheap". For example, people who made $50k/yr and bought a $1M house would delude themselves into buying the house by saying "Well, I can take the teaser rate for 2 years, and by then the price should go up by $100k, and then I can sell, and use that money for a downpayment on a house I can afford." Or, similarly during the dotcom bubble, analysts would say "Well, the P/E ratio is currently 1000, but based on the projected earnings 5 years from now, it's actually only 20." To be honest, in the midst of the bubble, this type of thinking works well. We all know what happens once the bubble bursts, though.

So when popular products like Instagram with zero revenues are being sold for $1 billion, there's a lot of the bubble math going on. "There are 30M users and we're paying $1 billion, so we're only paying $30/user." Anyone remember the acquisition of broadcast.com by Yahoo as a strategic acquisition? The same goes for the rumored attempted acquisition of Path for $100M a couple of years ago. Or Color.com paying $300k for their domain name. I think these massive Internet companies like Google and Facebook are taking a product, and applying dotcom math to it, and coming up with sky-high valuations given the size of their audience. Maybe they're right, maybe not. But they are the ones contributing to the idea that revenue-less products are worth hundreds of millions or billions of dollars.

So, when VCs know there are giant vacuum cleaners that are willing to pay ridiculous prices for products, of course they are going to drop all their money and invest in as many startups as possible. They would love to invest $250k in another Instagram and make $78M. And this helps sell investment in their funds as well, which causes more investors to pile in, trying to get a piece of a bunch of Silicon Valley startups.

And this is the situation where companies like Facebook or Google, or VCs are more interested in acquiring assets (ie investments in startups), rather than caring about the actual money itself.

My guess is that the bubble will burst soon after the Facebook IPO. Why? Because at that point, paying $1B for a company with zero revenues will likely be the cause of shareholder lawsuits, and there will be a lot more scrutiny involved in these acquisitions. Since selling to Google or Facebook is the exit strategy for most of these SV startups, if that door closes, then funding will get pulled quickly and violently, and it will be the start of the next dotcom bust 2.0.

People will also be closely watching Facebook's financial performance and seeing if they can justify their valuation of $100B. If they miss estimates, or if their ability to monetize consumers flattens, then it's most likely a catastrophic, extinction-level event for most of the startups in the Valley.

I certainly hope this doesn't occur, but I can't see how it's not likely. EDIT: To be clear, I don't mean that I believe Facebook will miss estimates, I do however believe that we are in a bubble that will burst.

Re: I'm calling this Bubble 2.0, and it's ready to burst

#80
post #66

As an outsider who watched a couple of bubbles from the outside (dotcom and housing), it seems that the likelihood of being in one ends up being inversely proportional to the vociferousness with which those on the inside claim it's not a bubble. i.e. Tell a Pets.com shareholder in 1999 that owning company stock and they'd look at you incredulously and tell you how we're in a new economy. Or tell a homeowner in early…

This is really interesting. It seems like everyone on HN, arguably the people who are most inside this industry are agreeing it is a bubble.

Usually that only happens after it is in mid/late pop. Is it possible that people are just scared of bubbles as we are reminded every day of the housing bubble? Alternatively is it possible that there is a specific asset class (ad based platforms) which may be in a bubble? Possibly it is a real bubble across startups that will certainly pop? I have no idea, but it is very strange to see so many people talking about a bubble before it is clearer the bubble is bursting.

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