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Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

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Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#771

Post by tamimio »

Daz1 wrote: post #756
tamimio wrote: post #678

Banning flipper zero because of car theft is like banning a hammer or screwdriver because is was used to break an all glass window.. going by the same logic, they should ban the USB-A port cables too since it’s what was used to steal most Hyundai/KIA cars, typical Canadian government policies, pretend you fix an issue instead of going to the root causes.

You might have a point if hammers or screwdrivers had no other purpose other than stealing cars, but they do, so you don't

> You might have a point if hammers or screwdrivers had no other purpose other than stealing cars

And so is flipper zero.. have another analogy, flipper zero is like Swiss army pocket knife, you can use it open your package box and also kill someone, zipper can be used as a toy -literally- or an IR remote, and can also steal a car, except I don’t think it can steal a car in the first place, it’s too weak, you need an advance SDR/ special antenna, zipper can’t even defeat garage remotes with a rotating keys unless you have an access to the garage unit.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#772

Post by electriclove »

electriclove wrote: post #760
EasyMark wrote: post #747

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is saying that, there are multiple contributors to the problem here, sure the thieves own the bulk of it, but manufacturers could fix the issue or offer a solution like a cheap install of an immobilizer.

In my left leaning workplace in my left leaning state, most colleagues do not want to assign the thieves any blame or have them face any consequences. These colleagues only want to blame and penalize the manufacturers. I think the manufacturer should fix things so they are more in line with other manufacturers. But I also want to see some repercussions for the thieves.

Can the downvoters explain why they disagree with: "I think the manufacturer should fix things so they are more in line with other manufacturers. But I also want to see some repercussions for the thieves."

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#773

Post by throw10920 »

kerowak wrote: post #472
GenerocUsername wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a melting pot, the US takes in a lot of folks from countries that are not doing very well... so in a way, if we keep importing folks from cultures that failed without trying to integrate them to our culture, and instead celebrate their original culture, eventually our amalgam culture will fail just like theirs did. Its why we have signs that say to "sit, not stand on toilets". You dont think we would need to write…

If American culture "fails," I'm gonna blame xenophobes like you who are incapable of adjusting to a dynamic world, not the "toilet standers."

This comment is utterly inappropriate for HN - there's nothing xenophobic about the GP comment, you're just using that phrase incorrectly to emotionally manipulate other readers.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#774

Post by Geisterde »

caconym_ wrote: post #765
Geisterde wrote: post #759

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never understand this arguement. I hear it in the form "we should just regulate cars to be safer", why dont you just buy a safer car? "What do you take me for? I got a mustang GT, the last thing that car is worried about is safety". Interesting, you bought a car because its fast, not paying any consideration to whether it could safely get you from point A to B, and this is what you rely on to get you to work? Its n…

We should regulate cars to be safer because I don't get to decide which car (or, more likely, truck) the moron who puts me/my family in the hospital (or the grave) was driving. Given the trends in traffic and pedestrian deaths in the US, our regulators are grossly negligent in this regard.

Sure, in the context of broad safety you have a point. Of course, you are more likely to die in places where police are responsible for your protection. The safest places people inhabit are their home, their work, places with private security measures.

The negligence you speak of, how widespread would you say it is? Would you say the EPA dropped the ball preventing the east Palestine Ohio train derailment? Would you say that having some hard cutoff for how many chemical train cars until the train is reclassified? I imagine you would agree, that the chemical company sending 59 (oh w/e) train cars instead of 60 so that they are under easier rules, is kind of bullshit.

If the company is following the rules then they can largely get away with it when things go wrong; if that company had actual liability for whats in the train cars, then they would have insurance. That insurance would be prorated on the safety profile of the train, and it would fix the hazzard or pay the claimants their due. These regulations only exist to cement decrepit companies monopoly over you.

I have no faith that "negligence" in the public sector will improve. The roads, the enforcement of driving conduct, that will not improve. The safety, security, and reliability of cars will improve, because there is still competition from self aware drivers.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#775

Post by EasyMark »

PeterisP wrote: post #14
ceejayoz wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies that put out egregiously vulnerable vehicles should be held liable, though.

In a bunch of scenarios (mining, military, boats, planes) the vehicles explicitly don't have locks or ignition keys, you press a button and it starts up, you're good to go - should the manufacturer be liable if one gets stolen?

Is there a rash of theft amongst those? Law is as much about being pragmatic as anything else.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#776

Post by fargle »

electriclove wrote: post #714
grubbs wrote: post #596

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The last point is a hard one when the perpetrator is a 11 year old kid who watched a TikTok video online on how to steal a Kia/Hyundai.

Punish the kid’s parents.. (oh wait, there might be a problem here)

not hard at all. where is CPS? obviously someone isn't giving an 11 year-old appropriate supervision at all if they are driving, let alone stealing a car. there absolutely should be consequences for both the parents and the child in this situation. i'm not saying one mistake, send the kid to prison, take away parental rights. but it should be severe enough to matter, including several thousand dollars restitution.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#777

Post by fargle »

jjav wrote: post #651
fargle wrote: post #583

stupid on stupid. - it's incredibly stupid to ban the flipper zero because it's factually not even part of the problem - but it's equally stupid to "ban insecure vehicles". if kia makes a cheap car with crappy locks either don't buy it (because maybe insurance) or add and aftermarket immobilizer or a steering wheel lock. if it was really negligent of kia to "save a couple bucks", then it's equally negligent on you fo…

Indeed, it is dumb to ban anything. A tool is a tool, it doesn't make the product weak, it already was. Also it is silly to ban insecure cars, that's quite the slippery slope. If the cars are too easy to steal insurance will increase accordingly and that will provide incentives to fix that without banning anything.

> If the cars are too easy to steal insurance will increase accordingly

that's exactly right. i was somewhat surprised that insurance was outright dropping people instead of simply increasing rates. and by the way, you can get a discount if you add x/y/z security alarm/immobilizer. the public outcry already has forced the issue with kia anyhow.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#778

Post by fargle »

dog_boxer72 wrote: post #722
phpisthebest wrote: post #717

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the age of information ignorance is no longer an option, Before I buy a car, most often the second largest purchase a person will make in their life next to housing. I do i TON of research, I look at insurance rates, I look at Theft Rates for that model, I look on Car Complaints and other Database for common failure items for that model, I have it inspected by a independent mechanic having them pay extra attention…

Yes anyone who doesn’t have the knowledge/time/motivation/cynicism to prevent themselves getting taken advantage of is basically asking for it, nay “deserves” it. /sarcasm

anyone who thinks there is anybody in the universe other than themselves that is going to take responsibility for their safety, security, happiness, etc. absolutely "deserves" what they get.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#779

Post by philistine »

rale00 wrote: post #623
fargle wrote: post #583

stupid on stupid. - it's incredibly stupid to ban the flipper zero because it's factually not even part of the problem - but it's equally stupid to "ban insecure vehicles". if kia makes a cheap car with crappy locks either don't buy it (because maybe insurance) or add and aftermarket immobilizer or a steering wheel lock. if it was really negligent of kia to "save a couple bucks", then it's equally negligent on you fo…

> if kia makes a cheap car with crappy locks either don't buy it Immobilizers were a standard feature on cars for decades. If you went to buy a car, no one was putting immobilizer on the list of features, and they certainly wouldn't let you try breaking the ignition lock on a test drive. If they had advertised that their vehicles were insecure, then sure, it's on the buyer, but they didn't.

The problem with Kia cars not having immobilizers is wholly american. It is illegal to sell a car in Canada without an immobilizer.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#780

Post by fargle »

danielheath wrote: post #725
phpisthebest wrote: post #717

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the age of information ignorance is no longer an option, Before I buy a car, most often the second largest purchase a person will make in their life next to housing. I do i TON of research, I look at insurance rates, I look at Theft Rates for that model, I look on Car Complaints and other Database for common failure items for that model, I have it inspected by a independent mechanic having them pay extra attention…

> In the age of information ignorance is no longer an option The age of information was great. In the age of misinformation, knowledge outside your specialty is no longer cheap enough to reliably obtain.

so in what age was ignorance a good option?
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