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Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

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Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#761

Post by kube-system »

acdha wrote: post #755
kube-system wrote: post #740

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Commercial tow trucks are not hard to get in many places, but it is also not required to tow a car. There are many consumer oriented solutions for towing a car. Tow dollies are about $40 to rent in my city. Or if you're a thief, trailers aren't hard to steal either. > If you can’t easily get a new key, the resell value for that car is going down dramatically. Most of the vehicles that are stolen for resale are high v…

> Commercial tow trucks are not hard to get in many places, but it is also not required to tow a car. There are many consumer oriented solutions for towing a car. Tow dollies are about $40 to rent in my city. Or if you're a thief, trailers aren't hard to steal either. Again, it’s possible but do you really think there isn’t even one thief who lacks easy access to a tow truck or will be caught firing up noisy equipmen…

There's different categories of criminal here who are willing and able to do different things to different types of cars.

> Again, it’s possible but do you really think there isn’t even one thief who lacks easy access to a tow truck or will be caught firing up noisy equipment at 3am but not if they fumble around in their pocket while walking up to a car?

Canbus attacks, OBDII reprogrammers, and similar are typically pretty intrusive, they require cutting into fender liners, removing lamps, busting a window, or otherwise gaining physical access to the bus. They also require specialized tooling and expertise that are harder to get than the tools which physically move vehicles.

The one that might be an exception, and some savvy street criminal might be able to get their hands on is a tool to do is a relay attack, which is usually good enough to steal belongings from a car, but generally not capable of stealing the car.

> Not a single teenager looking to joyride won’t give up if it’s harder than the Kia video they saw on Tik Tok?

Definitely not. Vehicles with immobilizers are essentially never stolen by joyriders unless they have also stolen the keys.

> Even if we assume that there are countries with skilled technicians and effectively no law enforcement, only something like 10-15% of stolen vehicles are shipped according to U.S. officials

Yes, and almost all of the other ones either just lack immobilizers, or the thief also stole the keys.

e.g https://archive.is/kxXn3

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#762

Post by Geisterde »

danielheath wrote: post #725
phpisthebest wrote: post #717

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the age of information ignorance is no longer an option, Before I buy a car, most often the second largest purchase a person will make in their life next to housing. I do i TON of research, I look at insurance rates, I look at Theft Rates for that model, I look on Car Complaints and other Database for common failure items for that model, I have it inspected by a independent mechanic having them pay extra attention…

> In the age of information ignorance is no longer an option The age of information was great. In the age of misinformation, knowledge outside your specialty is no longer cheap enough to reliably obtain.

What world do you live in? The statistics are pretty clear and accessible. Are you so obsessed with something you cant attend to your own basic needs?

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#763

Post by Geisterde »

CivBase wrote: post #724
phpisthebest wrote: post #717

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the age of information ignorance is no longer an option, Before I buy a car, most often the second largest purchase a person will make in their life next to housing. I do i TON of research, I look at insurance rates, I look at Theft Rates for that model, I look on Car Complaints and other Database for common failure items for that model, I have it inspected by a independent mechanic having them pay extra attention…

Do you look up the software security measures implemented by the keyfob too? That information would be very difficult for a layperson to find and make sense of. This may be the "age of information", but information is only useful as your ability to find, understand, and evaluate it.

Lets see, oooo tiktok, heres the kia challenge. Or maybe google "are kias secure". Whatever format you can understand, you will be presented several sources that explain the situation quite clearly.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#764

Post by [deleted] »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #664
fargle wrote: post #583

stupid on stupid. - it's incredibly stupid to ban the flipper zero because it's factually not even part of the problem - but it's equally stupid to "ban insecure vehicles". if kia makes a cheap car with crappy locks either don't buy it (because maybe insurance) or add and aftermarket immobilizer or a steering wheel lock. if it was really negligent of kia to "save a couple bucks", then it's equally negligent on you fo…

> i'm not negligent for not doing enough to prevent the crimes of some other asshole. If you entire job is selling locks and they don’t prevent crime, then it’s not negligent, it’s fraudulent. You want to be in the clear? Sell a car without a lock, see how many people buy that. > if kia makes a cheap car with crappy locks either don't buy it And if Boeing makes a cheap, unsafe plane, don’t fly on it I would be happy…

[deleted]

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#765

Post by caconym_ »

Geisterde wrote: post #759
vsuperpower2020 wrote: post #691

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody knows a vehicle is insecure when they buy it. It's simpler, more cost efficient, and more valuable to society just to require cars to have basic security features. Your idea of market correction doesn't work in this case, because it's never advertised as having shitty security, and the average (or even informed) consumer will have no idea this is a problem until after they've bought the car.

I never understand this arguement. I hear it in the form "we should just regulate cars to be safer", why dont you just buy a safer car? "What do you take me for? I got a mustang GT, the last thing that car is worried about is safety". Interesting, you bought a car because its fast, not paying any consideration to whether it could safely get you from point A to B, and this is what you rely on to get you to work? Its n…

We should regulate cars to be safer because I don't get to decide which car (or, more likely, truck) the moron who puts me/my family in the hospital (or the grave) was driving. Given the trends in traffic and pedestrian deaths in the US, our regulators are grossly negligent in this regard.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#766

Post by TylerE »

sleepybrett wrote: post #699
TylerE wrote: post #540

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A traditional car key can be trivially duplicated at any hardware store. That's the difference. You can make as many spares as you want for a couple bucks a pop. No dependencies. No network.

Not fully true. Just as it's not true with non-car keys. Some blanks are heavily protected. Now these days with the dissemination of cheap cnc mills, maybe thats a bit more trivial, but you are paying a lot more for a cnc mill than you pay for a old key grinder. Same issue we have now with ghost guns honestly. CNC mills are powerful tools, with the right software you can essentially just place the properly sized chun…

That's why I said traditional key. They're just metal with a few parts cut to a specific profile. It's once you start mucking around with immobilizers and other encrypted things that need the factory tools... Those can cost tens of thousands, and usually require continuous internet access back to the home office.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#767

Post by electriclove »

Daz1 wrote: post #756
tamimio wrote: post #678

Banning flipper zero because of car theft is like banning a hammer or screwdriver because is was used to break an all glass window.. going by the same logic, they should ban the USB-A port cables too since it’s what was used to steal most Hyundai/KIA cars, typical Canadian government policies, pretend you fix an issue instead of going to the root causes.

You might have a point if hammers or screwdrivers had no other purpose other than stealing cars, but they do, so you don't

So does the Flipper.. so what are you trying to say?

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#768

Post by electriclove »

Ekaros wrote: post #62
lupusreal wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We'll end up banning windows at this rate, they're an egregious vulnerability in cars and buildings alike. American cities, soft on crime, can't stop thieves from breaking windows so maybe they'll go after car manufacturers and construction firms instead. Going after companies instead of criminals is more aligned with their left-wing sensibilities, I think that's what this is really about.

Seems reasonable. Doors, windows, walls, roofs and sub-basements should be such that you cannot simply pass through them. After all it is now quite trivial to break through. And surely this is failure that builders should be responsible for.

Exactly! Those greedy builder corporations should only offer windows that have bars built into them so that homes can't get broken into. They save money by not incorporating the bars in the windows by default.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#769

Post by electriclove »

vsuperpower2020 wrote: post #729
phpisthebest wrote: post #717

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the age of information ignorance is no longer an option, Before I buy a car, most often the second largest purchase a person will make in their life next to housing. I do i TON of research, I look at insurance rates, I look at Theft Rates for that model, I look on Car Complaints and other Database for common failure items for that model, I have it inspected by a independent mechanic having them pay extra attention…

Car thefts are extremely dangerous for everyone on or near the road. It's obviously better to just not allow car manufacturers to neglect basic security practices. There's also entire categories of issues you don't have to research anymore because they've been optimized out of every modern car. Soon cars being hacked with toys will be added to that list for you. Notably, "airbag explosion rate" wasn't on that researc…

It's obviously better to just kill anyone that steals a car. I doubt anyone would try to steal a car after a few examples have been made.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#770

Post by happytiger »

dymk wrote: post #720
happytiger wrote: post #660

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea of banning the flipper is like banning legos because you can build lockpicks out of them — it’s just nonsensical politician logic.

What kind of lockpick can you build out of legos?

A very, very bad one that might only work with Lego locks.

Let me double down…

https://ideas.lego.com/projects/40434532-eaa1-4926-8621-3629...

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