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Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

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Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#711

Post by iraqmtpizza »

patmorgan23 wrote: post #526
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please list all of the “actual crimes”

I don't remember the terms but there's a category of crimes that are "crimes because that's what the written law says"(i.e. driving without a license) and "crimes that morally abhorrent and actual harm to someone"(i.e. murder, theft) "Actual crimes" would be category 2. Building or owning a flipper zero would be in category 1. (As would laws that ban things like owning/carrying lockpicks without being a licensed lock…

malum prohibitum, malum in se

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#712

Post by electriclove »

madmountaingoat wrote: post #662
RHSeeger wrote: post #641

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I left a million dollars out on my front porch, and someone stole it, that would not be my fault in any sort of way It's possible for multiple people to share the blame for something. You _are_ the victim. The person who stole it _is_ the bad guy / criminal. But you _both_ share the blame, because you did something to put yourself at risk when you had better options. If I'm out late at night, wearing expensive j…

[flagged]

Exactly! The people holding these views are unable to see their hypocrisy.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#713

Post by devmor »

fargle wrote: post #583

stupid on stupid. - it's incredibly stupid to ban the flipper zero because it's factually not even part of the problem - but it's equally stupid to "ban insecure vehicles". if kia makes a cheap car with crappy locks either don't buy it (because maybe insurance) or add and aftermarket immobilizer or a steering wheel lock. if it was really negligent of kia to "save a couple bucks", then it's equally negligent on you fo…

Do you believe that consumer protections should not exist?

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#714

Post by electriclove »

grubbs wrote: post #596
fargle wrote: post #583

stupid on stupid. - it's incredibly stupid to ban the flipper zero because it's factually not even part of the problem - but it's equally stupid to "ban insecure vehicles". if kia makes a cheap car with crappy locks either don't buy it (because maybe insurance) or add and aftermarket immobilizer or a steering wheel lock. if it was really negligent of kia to "save a couple bucks", then it's equally negligent on you fo…

The last point is a hard one when the perpetrator is a 11 year old kid who watched a TikTok video online on how to steal a Kia/Hyundai.

Punish the kid’s parents.. (oh wait, there might be a problem here)

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#715

Post by electriclove »

paganel wrote: post #679
fargle wrote: post #583

stupid on stupid. - it's incredibly stupid to ban the flipper zero because it's factually not even part of the problem - but it's equally stupid to "ban insecure vehicles". if kia makes a cheap car with crappy locks either don't buy it (because maybe insurance) or add and aftermarket immobilizer or a steering wheel lock. if it was really negligent of kia to "save a couple bucks", then it's equally negligent on you fo…

Nobody is mentioning about how this is a social problem with the US that needs fixing, for example I often times forget to lock my car's doors in the Eastern European capital where I'm living and yet I've never had anyone "steal" stuff from it. But I get it, it's easier to think about applying technological or even legal solutions instead of thinking about how to fix a societal problem.

Yup, and you get downvoted for even trying to discuss it. Need the Overton window to shift slightly so it can be discussed on HN. It is a societal problem and I hope for our future we can fix it.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#716

Post by vkou »

pdonis wrote: post #553
stevofolife wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a wild statement to make about UN's unproductiveness in the history of its existence. I'd like some evidence please.

> I'd like some evidence please. Um, the state of the world today? Read the preamble of the UN charter and ask yourself how well the UN has actually done at moving the world in the direction of those things.

The fair point of comparison would be to contrast it with what the world would be like without it.

And neither I, nor you can make such a contrast fairly. It immediately goes hard into speculative-fiction territory, and such an exercise would educate us about our own biases, more than we'd learn about the UN.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#717

Post by phpisthebest »

vsuperpower2020 wrote: post #691
fargle wrote: post #583

stupid on stupid. - it's incredibly stupid to ban the flipper zero because it's factually not even part of the problem - but it's equally stupid to "ban insecure vehicles". if kia makes a cheap car with crappy locks either don't buy it (because maybe insurance) or add and aftermarket immobilizer or a steering wheel lock. if it was really negligent of kia to "save a couple bucks", then it's equally negligent on you fo…

Nobody knows a vehicle is insecure when they buy it. It's simpler, more cost efficient, and more valuable to society just to require cars to have basic security features. Your idea of market correction doesn't work in this case, because it's never advertised as having shitty security, and the average (or even informed) consumer will have no idea this is a problem until after they've bought the car.

In the age of information ignorance is no longer an option, Before I buy a car, most often the second largest purchase a person will make in their life next to housing. I do i TON of research, I look at insurance rates, I look at Theft Rates for that model, I look on Car Complaints and other Database for common failure items for that model, I have it inspected by a independent mechanic having them pay extra attention to the common failure items. etc

If you just roll in and let the salesman take you for a ride then you deserve the outcome.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#718

Post by noduerme »

strangattractor wrote: post #707
GuB-42 wrote: post #617

> Security tools like Flipper Zero are essentially programmable radios, known as Software Defined Radios (SDRs) The Flipper Zero is not a SDR, it is less capable than that. That's the ironic part, the Flipper Zero is a rather weak hacking tool. It can open car doors, but it is so impractical that it is not much more than a party trick. You have to record the code by pressing the button on the keyfob out of range of t…

At one time is was possible to open car doors with a coat hanger. Nobody suggested banning coat hangers. They fixed the doors.

This came in handy for me once when I locked myself out of a u-haul in what used to be a rough neighborhood in New York. I was standing there fishing with a coat hanger trying to figure it out when a gangster looking dude came up and was like "here, let me help you with that," and 3 seconds later had the door open.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#719

Post by kube-system »

jasomill wrote: post #677
kube-system wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would that look like in reality? Expecting dealerships to have the same physical security, procedures, and security vetting of a bank? There's already a shortage of workers in these roles, now we want the guys busting their knuckles on vehicle repairs to have a good credit score and good background check and perform elaborate opening and closing procedures with a buddy system? Storing tools in a vault? I really…

Require resets to be initiated and authorized by the F&I department, whose security and KYC processes should already be substantially similar to those of other institutions that regularly approve $50,000+ loans.

My prediction:

1. As a result, we'll see costs like losing the keys to a rental car go from a $250-500 fee to a $2500-5000 fee, due to the additional costs to process and the additional loss of use.

2. Criminal rings that steal high value cars will go from often using tow trucks, to exclusively using tow trucks.

3. The number of cars stolen via stolen keys will remain unchanged.

Yes, the key itself will be more secure, but I'm not really sure it will actually improve anything. More security is not better if the costs do not create real-world results.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#720

Post by dymk »

happytiger wrote: post #660
GuB-42 wrote: post #617

> Security tools like Flipper Zero are essentially programmable radios, known as Software Defined Radios (SDRs) The Flipper Zero is not a SDR, it is less capable than that. That's the ironic part, the Flipper Zero is a rather weak hacking tool. It can open car doors, but it is so impractical that it is not much more than a party trick. You have to record the code by pressing the button on the keyfob out of range of t…

The idea of banning the flipper is like banning legos because you can build lockpicks out of them — it’s just nonsensical politician logic.

What kind of lockpick can you build out of legos?
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