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Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

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Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#661
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you calculate this value of zero percent? Divide all the crime cases of the previous day by the number of humans? And who wrote the headline?

> How do you calculate this value of zero percent? This gets messy for obvious topological/continuity reasons, but a shocking number of applications are both correct and simple to reason about if you choose to define 0/0 == 0 (kind of like how if you choose to universally define sum(empty_set) == 0 and product(empty_set) == 1 then tons of higher-level formulae just work and don't have to special-case a base case). In…

> "And who wrote the headline?"

Probably a "NewsBot" of some sort?

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#662
post #616

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> If I left a million dollars out on my front porch, and someone stole it, that would not be my fault in any sort of way It's possible for multiple people to share the blame for something. You _are_ the victim. The person who stole it _is_ the bad guy / criminal. But you _both_ share the blame, because you did something to put yourself at risk when you had better options. If I'm out late at night, wearing expensive j…

[flagged]

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#663

Security flaws are not born equal. I think there is supposed to be a clear distinction between flaws inherent in technology -- since you only know what you know nobody should be expected to develop impenetrable digital fortresses since that doesn't exist and would actually be harmful for the consumer -- and those flaws born out of neglect. The latter should be specified and treated accordingly, because it isn't a val…

> Security flaws are not born equal. Absolutely. And let's bring risk into this. Security risks are not born equal. Serious security thinkers evaluate according to factors of likelihood, impact, mitigation cost etc. A car is a dangerous weapon, especially in the hands of a group of giddy kids, maybe drunk or way too high to drive. The likelihood of someone getting seriously injured or killed by joyriding is high. It'…

> especially in the hands of a group of giddy kids

Also the scenario where it's being used as a disposable battering-ram to smash into a store. (As you might expect, those are the stolen cars with lesser potential resale value.)

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#664
post #583

stupid on stupid. - it's incredibly stupid to ban the flipper zero because it's factually not even part of the problem - but it's equally stupid to "ban insecure vehicles". if kia makes a cheap car with crappy locks either don't buy it (because maybe insurance) or add and aftermarket immobilizer or a steering wheel lock. if it was really negligent of kia to "save a couple bucks", then it's equally negligent on you fo…

> i'm not negligent for not doing enough to prevent the crimes of some other asshole.

If you entire job is selling locks and they don’t prevent crime, then it’s not negligent, it’s fraudulent.

You want to be in the clear? Sell a car without a lock, see how many people buy that.

> if kia makes a cheap car with crappy locks either don't buy it

And if Boeing makes a cheap, unsafe plane, don’t fly on it

I would be happy to run this experiment if lying to a customer about safety/properties of your product led to capital punishment. But currently companies will simply defraud you by lying about their product, and suffer no consequence

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#665

Security flaws are not born equal. I think there is supposed to be a clear distinction between flaws inherent in technology -- since you only know what you know nobody should be expected to develop impenetrable digital fortresses since that doesn't exist and would actually be harmful for the consumer -- and those flaws born out of neglect. The latter should be specified and treated accordingly, because it isn't a val…

Your point are generally good.

I should say I drive a twenty year old car with an immobilizer chip and basic logic sounding the alarm when someone breaks a window to open a door. As far as I can tell, that makes it very secure. So it seems like the onus in the car manufacturers to create a vehicle at least as secure as this simple system.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#666

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I left a million dollars out on my front porch, and someone stole it, that would not be my fault in any sort of way It's possible for multiple people to share the blame for something. You _are_ the victim. The person who stole it _is_ the bad guy / criminal. But you _both_ share the blame, because you did something to put yourself at risk when you had better options. If I'm out late at night, wearing expensive j…

[flagged]

apparently, only on dark alleys at night.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#667

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but this wouldn't prevent dangerous street criminals from stealing cars. Many of them steal the keys with the car. They go down to the gas station, and wait for an old lady with a nice car to pull up to the pump, and when she hops out they hop in. The criminals doing more skilled attacks typically aren't joyriding or using it to commit other crimes, they typically doing it for financial gain: they want the car,…

That kind of expands the scope of this conversations to mugging/carjacking, which also comes with a higher penalty, and probably higher priority to the police. And, it involves interacting with someone, who presumably can call the police afterwards, and activate any lojack / immobilisation device before it can be removed. Presumably the appeal of stealing a parked car it may be a while before it has been discovered a…

The only reasonable way to evaluate risk is as a whole. Real world attackers pick whichever realm is easiest to exploit, they aren't going to waste their time doing something difficult when there are easier ways to accomplish their goal.

> who presumably can call the police afterwards, and activate any lojack / immobilisation device before it can be removed.

Yes, people who carjack usually aren't looking for a nice daily driver to hang on to for the next 3 years. Usually they want to joyride, or use the car for some other crime, in the immediate term.

> Also, doing such a thing in a gas-station where there are likely cameras and even other people / attendants make it seem pretty risky to me. Are these dudes just hanging around the pumps in masks?

Stealing a car, and being in possession of a stolen car, is pretty risky already. I think someone who does this type of crime is probably not very risk averse. Wearing masks is a pretty common way to thwart cameras when committing a crime in many places, I don't think this potential security issue is specific to certain countries. I think what you might be hinting at is that fewer people want to do carjackings in different places, but the same applies to canbus exploits. Nor do I think anyone really needs to "hang out" to find a car at a gas station. Many have cars filling up at them regularly throughout business hours.

> Presumably the appeal of stealing a parked car it may be a while before it has been discovered and reported stolen.

Yes, and while there are some instances of this happening electronically, I don't think closing those avenues will change anything, because towing cars is neither difficult nor suspicious in many places. Again, security is only as good as the weakest link. Nearly all criminals cut locks, even ones are very easily picked.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#668

Security flaws are not born equal. I think there is supposed to be a clear distinction between flaws inherent in technology -- since you only know what you know nobody should be expected to develop impenetrable digital fortresses since that doesn't exist and would actually be harmful for the consumer -- and those flaws born out of neglect. The latter should be specified and treated accordingly, because it isn't a val…

> Also, Flipper Zero can be made DIY

What's the actual wording, is it a ban on the FZ specifically? Could anyone sell a "Zipper Flero" clone?

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#669

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The manufacturer is not the victim here, the buyer is. If I pay a contractor to install a new door and lock on my apartment and it turns out they did a terrible job which made it trivial for a thief to break in, the contractor should be liable. Crime exists, this is the world we live in. Failing to implement even the most basic security measure, which is considered industry standard, in a high-value product that is k…

> Failing to implement even the most basic security measure, which is considered industry standard, in a high-value product that is known to be very attractive to thieves and then selling that product to consumers with no warning that "unlike most other cars on the market, which have many layers of security features, this car can be stolen using a cheap toy" makes the inevitable thefts absolutely Kia's fault. I don't…

> If you buy a classic vehicle, they don't have these kinds of things either

Not a good analogy, because buying a classic vehicle automatically waives a bunch of safety and other features that are not only expected in modern day, they are straight up legally required.

A car manufacturer cannot remake a classic vehicle from the 80s and release it in the US in 2024. Or, probably, EU too, I cannot speak for that due to my unfamiliarity with vehicle laws there, but afaik they are more strict than the US. It would be just illegal to sell that car. Thin pillars that won’t pass any modern safety tests, no backup camera (which makes it illegal to sell as a new car in the US), not enoug crumple zones, etc.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#670
post #540

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same problem exist for car keys. The answer is, when a person "inevitably lose[s] it", they need to pay to get their electronics refit.

A traditional car key can be trivially duplicated at any hardware store. That's the difference. You can make as many spares as you want for a couple bucks a pop. No dependencies. No network.

Why can't electronic keys be duplicated / backed-up?
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