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Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

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Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#541

Post by Szpadel »

mp05 wrote: post #238
Szpadel wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I observed the same, especially with recent abortion movements (from what I heard those were also in USA and I'm assuming from what I saw on internet, it look similar to what is happening in my country) I believe that car thieft could be exactly the same. basically people behave like legal abortion means that women will have to perform it and that's bad. especially I hear that from religious people that they don't ap…

> basically people behave like legal abortion means that women will have to perform it and that's bad So let me get this straight: you're suggesting that because abortion may be legalized at a federal level that religious people are upset because women will "have to perform it"? And this is your broad stroke assumption of why people are upset? Not to derail the thread but you just made a wild statement to me and I wa…

Sorry I had very little spare time to write that comment and communicated pourly what I had in mind. Let me rephrase it:

When I hear arguments against legalized abortion from religious people their argumentation is basing that women will "have to perform it" what is of course very false.

They are ignoring fact that because something is legal it only means that people can do it but they are still able to decide that it's against their belives and resign from doing that procedure.

In my country they passed laws that forbid such procedures unconditionally even if that means that women might not survive it. So we had cases when women and unborn died because they could not remove deformed unborn.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#542

Post by [deleted] »

slingnow wrote: post #514
madeofpalk wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think society finds stealing cars acceptable. That's why stealing illegal, that's why they're trying to outlaw a device that makes stealing cars easier, and why this article is trying to make it illegal to have easy-to-steal cars. Outliers stealing cars is not a demonstration that some part of society finds that ethetical.

Society largely finds marijuana use acceptable, and yet it remains a federal crime. When someone cuts me in line at the store, I don't see that as ethical or acceptable, but we don't have laws against it. So your argument that unacceptable == illegal isn't set in stone. We may have laws for things that we don't bother to enforce as a society. It's easy to see the possibility that society just views car theft as a nor…

[deleted]

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#543

Post by petsfed »

strangattractor wrote: post #499
keiferski wrote: post #98

Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…

Another way to frame it (IMHO) might be not to think of laws as a deterrent - especially because people break them anyway. The law codifies what circumstances the government can and cannot restrict your rights. Codifying this serves 2 primary purposes. It informs people in advance what is allowable so people cannot be arbitrarily arrested for doing things they don't know is illegal. Secondly it prescribes the penalty…

And one of the core questions to be answered when prescribing how and when the government can restrict your rights is "which is the worse outcome for society as a whole?"

The question of abortion really crystallizes this question perfectly for me: Which is worse? That a small number of people use infanticide in lieu of pro-active birth control? Or that a small number of people are forced to carry a nonviable pregnancy to term (even at the cost of their own life), or carry and raise a reminder of their rape (up to and including providing visitation/custody to their rapist)?

There's a reason this is so controversial, and its because people (rightly) can't agree on which outcome society must necessarily be an accessory to.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#544

Post by jonhohle »

ceejayoz wrote: post #155
sokoloff wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the context of this article (Canada focused), do the relevant Hyundais and Kias have the same security problem? https://www.ctvnews.ca/autos/kia-and-hyundai-vehicles-in-can...

I agree with the article; that regulating car manufacturers who make insecure cars is the correct approach. This specific case illustrates the effectiveness of the approach.

I read this view as: it’s fine to steal a car without an immobilizer. That’s an insane take (and why we can’t have nice things).

Meanwhile other modern countries (albeit with much stricter law enforcement and a more unified value system) can operate with 0.1% of the equivalent crime and that’s not what we aspire to. Instead we want to blame the manufacturer who must have certainly enticed antisocial, destructive behavior. What an awful and poisonous worldview.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#546

Post by acdha »

newsclues wrote: post #431
acdha wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, because the current design is lax. Now think about what happens if the engine computer won’t start with a bad signature or the entertainment system won’t work. How would that affect the overseas market?

The part that requires a signature will be taken out and replaced. Infotainment systems will get gutted and replaced with aftermarket ones.

Again, all of those lower the value to the thieves. If they need to create a custom engine controller, they’re going to need to pay a lot more than the $0 they currently spend. If they need to replace the entertainment system, the cost of doing so will cut into their margin.

Don’t make the mistake of thinking that a system needs to be perfect to be worthwhile.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#547

Post by riskable »

sidewndr46 wrote: post #182
vladvasiliu wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a different discussion. There doesn't seem to have been any abuse of a loved one before the perps drove off in the cars. The cars weren't sold as "unstealable". The whole point is that what was sold (some kind of key security) was half-assedly implemented.

You can extrapolate this argument to almost anything about a vehicle in North America. I've been working on them for decades. The way manufacturers make money is by half-assing things. Where a chain should be used, a belt is used. Where a 10 cent switch should be used, a touchscreen replaces it. Where a shifter should be, some knob is used to replace which actually kills a guy because he didn't realize his SUV was in…

You are so wrong it's unreal!

Quality switches suitable for use in a vehicle don't cost $0.10, they cost $0.01!

-at the volumes they'd be purchased for auto manufacturing.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#548

Post by golemiprague »

keiferski wrote: post #98

Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…

[dead]

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#549

Post by acdha »

2024throwaway wrote: post #152
acdha wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maintenance is a big key management problem though: if only the owner has it, there will be problems when people inevitably lose it. If there are shared keys for service departments or databases, thieves will get access to them. Things like time-limited on-demand keys can limit those problems but now you can’t get your car serviced when Toyota’s servers go down and they need to commit to not breaking API compatibilit…

GP said the key is in the car key. You already give the car key to a mechanic, I don't see how this would make maintenance any harder.

Think about what happens when people lose their keys, which will reliably happen.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#550

Post by pdonis »

tomrod wrote: post #415
pdonis wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is why the UN exists and the LON before it Um, you do realize that the League of Nations was a failure ? And that the UN, although at least it still exists (unlike the LON, which only lasted a decade or so), has not accomplished anything meaningful in terms of enforcing actual norms of behavior?

Are you kidding? UN has had tremendous impact in the world.

> UN has had tremendous impact in the world

Perhaps, but if so, I think its impact is, at the very least, net negative, not net positive.

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