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Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

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Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#441

Post by _heimdall »

We don't necessarily need yet another pile of laws and regulations here. If consumers want secure vehicles they should prioritize buying vehicles that don't offer internet icon necked features.

Its crazy that most consumers prioritize convenience and novelty above all else then turn around and demand even more government authority to protect them from features that aren't needed in the first place.

I 100% agree with the author's argument that banning security research is a bad idea, but no matter how much research is done we can never guarantee consumers that their vehicle can't be taken over. If you can unlock and start your car from your phone there is always a possibility of attack. Period.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#442

Post by immibis »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #317
bryanlarsen wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think there's anything more guaranteed to turn a 12 or 13 year old into a lifelong criminal than what I think you're implying by "real correction in behaviour"; aka a multi-year prison sentence.

> I don't think there's anything more guaranteed to turn a 12 or 13 year old into a lifelong criminal than what I think you're implying by "real correction in behaviour"; aka a multi-year prison sentence. Society had better correct that problem quickly or those two 12/13 year old kids are going to have ruined their lives by the time they turn 18. Something drastic has to be done, a slap on the wrist and sending them…

The problem cannot be corrected by locking them in a room until they're 25, then releasing them.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#443

Post by mrguyorama »

Domenic_S wrote: post #299
ryandrake wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone is stealing cars at 12 or 13 years old, they're already well on their way down the path towards irredeemability. Society has to do something or they will turn into a lifelong criminal. A multi-year prison sentence is probably not going to help them, but counseling, a better home and school environment, food in the belly, and so on might. You have to do something besides "catch and release" which has been t…

> counseling, a better home and school environment, food in the belly, and so on might. This seems right for preventing criminals from forming out of otherwise-blank-slate children, but what do you do with these kids? There's no magic wand that turns their home & school life right. On the other hand, there are plenty of kids who had a perfectly fine and financed upbringing who turned into criminals and terrors, they…

>a set of ethics & morals, and if those don't take real well there's always the all-seeing entity watching you at all times.

Do you think we didn't have crime when the church was in charge?

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#444

Post by mrguyorama »

renewiltord wrote: post #408
ToucanLoucan wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Our real problem is just the pendulum swinging too far towards assuming people want to be good and they just need some compassion. There's an entire field of study covering how ineffective punitive justice is. Unless the perpetrator at hand is literally an irredeemable monster, locking them away in a box until they're later released with even more stigmas, even further behind the curve, and without the ability to e…

To be honest, there's also entire fields of study of how God makes everything in the world happen, so I doubt I'm much convinced by how many fields of studies there are. People have been able to bullshit each other over obvious things for eons. The existence of such fields means nothing.

God doesn't have many peer reviewed studies. This is a non-sequitur. You don't get to hand wave away reality that you don't like

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#445

Post by seanmcdirmid »

immibis wrote: post #433
freedomben wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fully agree with you regarding situations where people get put into the system. Our justice system in practice, if not philosophy is very much based on punishment rather than rehabilitation. In my personal opinion this is medieval and really needs to change. However, what GP I suspect is seeing and what many others have seen as well, is a recognition that the system is broken, and thus a reluctance on a part of aut…

To reiterate what you just wrote in the second paragraph: Punishment ruins lives, so people vote against ruining each other's lives, so a group of people (who are but you did not refer to as fascists) who are disappointed with the amount of lives not being ruined will increase the level of punishment even further to maintain or exceed life-ruining equilibrium? It may be true or false, that I don't know, but the blame…

Then don't punish. Reform, correct, fix. A lot of people will still see that as punishment (like they would see army bootcamp as punishment), but then we would just start disagreeing.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#446

Post by what-the-grump »

sidewndr46 wrote: post #10

This has to be one of the dumbest things I've read in a while. All vehicles are insecure. I can hook a tow truck to almost any vehicle, including an 80,000 lbs tractor trailer and drive off with it. That'd actually attract less attention that outright hotwiring a vehicle. The solution is to identify, arrest, and prosecute criminals. Which the government is not obligated to do in the US.

Right, so let me get a tow truck, register it to a location, get caught going down the road with it on cameras... etc.

Or buy a 200-dollar device and walk up to a car in a hoody and steal it?

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#447

Post by Lockranor »

crandycodes wrote: post #221
keiferski wrote: post #98

Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…

I disagree. If just expecting good outcomes worked, why would we have any laws at all? Before we had laws on child labor, we had children working and falling into heavy machinery. Before we had laws on food quality, you had to guess which milk provider was going to give you the least amount of formaldehyde poison. Before we had laws enforcing civil rights, over half the adult population in the US was disenfranchised.…

Governments are formed by single cultures with a shared value set, and a set of ethics that they believe in. Your statement that laws aren't needed until they are is accurate.

As those shared values are lost, the ethics built upon them erode, more laws are constructed. However, there comes a point where this system of check and balance can no longer function properly, and eventually, the system either becomes too unwieldy to function, or else the system is destroyed due to rebellion or anarchy.

Why? Because law is an attempt to encode ethics based on shared values. No culture which does not share values can long endure when attempting to solve the problem through increasingly complex rules with no underlying theme.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#448

Post by controversy »

bee_rider wrote: post #396
GenerocUsername wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a melting pot, the US takes in a lot of folks from countries that are not doing very well... so in a way, if we keep importing folks from cultures that failed without trying to integrate them to our culture, and instead celebrate their original culture, eventually our amalgam culture will fail just like theirs did. Its why we have signs that say to "sit, not stand on toilets". You dont think we would need to write…

The melting pot is a way of integrating people into our country. It has been criticized as being too homogenizing; and now I think (for the better) most people see it as a nice lumpy stew. We shouldn’t ask people to give up all their traditions or change completely to become American, it is a give and take communication process that we both benefit from. WRT toilets, I think it has been shown that squatting actually…

[dead]

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#449

Post by electriclove »

keiferski wrote: post #98

Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…

It is sad that this is where our society is at. You are right, many do not want to discuss how car theft is fundamentally unethical. Many want to think that simply passing laws is a solution. Many laws that do not get enforced. Many do not want consequences or punishment for those who do unethical things.

Unethical behavior will only change if there is a consequence. In the US, there is no consequence for many people for unethical behavior. Implementing consequences here is frowned upon.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#450

Post by autoexec »

freedomben wrote: post #364
autoexec wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We aren’t very serious about enforcing our laws, especially when kids are involved. In the US we lock more of our citizens behind bars than any other nation on Earth. Conviction for even a minor offense can make it extremely difficult to get employment or housing. People rarely get a clean slate after serving their time and even an arrest record without a conviction can haunt you. Nearly all other developed countri…

I fully agree with you regarding situations where people get put into the system. Our justice system in practice, if not philosophy is very much based on punishment rather than rehabilitation. In my personal opinion this is medieval and really needs to change. However, what GP I suspect is seeing and what many others have seen as well, is a recognition that the system is broken, and thus a reluctance on a part of aut…

> The goal of not institutionalizing them and setting them up for a difficult future is noble and laudable, however, I worry that this will ultimately be counterproductive. It is going to cause a swing much like what we are seeing, where people conclude that we are not tough enough on crime and thus we need to get more extreme, more punishing, and more authoritarian, which is the exact wrong way in my opinion.

I totally agree. I also worry that people will continue to push for more extreme forms of punishment. It's gross that we accept how prisoners and ex-cons are treated as it is. I think there are still a lot of people who would already prefer if our legal system was even more cruel, but even if most of us want reform all we can really do is vote for the people willing to do it. Our strongest point of leverage here is jury nullification, but I wonder how popular that would actually be with jurors and since most cases never reach trial we're denied the opportunity to use nullification to prevent defendants from being subjected to excessive, inhumane, and unjust punishments anyway.

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